Author Topic: UNPOPULAR OPINIONS YOU MAY HAVE REGARDING THE GENRE?  (Read 17521 times)

SoukousFan #45 on: May 09, 2018, 21:47

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I remember Vibesdeafrique very well

Congolitude #46 on: May 09, 2018, 22:41

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What is killing our music is mixing it with the Rap / RnB style. Ferré QQJD's album is a good return to the sources even though the generiques are a failure. What we need is also to find sebenes as violent as Loi, Kibuisa Mpimpa, Trop c'est trop ...

Rumba is not as intriguing to people as sebene

Paysan Congolais #47 on: May 10, 2018, 09:56

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Having white members on a forum does not mean white people listen to our music. I know white people who like pondu but I'll never say that white people like to eat our food. You're turning anecdote into rule. Congolese music was never popular among westerners. The fact that some white people with a big curiosity were interested in our music does not change that. Our music was popular in Congo and Africa. The average african man listened to congolese music. The average westerner did not know about it or did not care about it. This is like saying that Africans listened to Johnny Haliday. It's not true, even though you'll find some Africans who listened to him.

You're putting words in my mouth.  I never said white people as a whole listen and enjoy African music.  My point was, don't think that the music was only listened to in Africa.  Franco's Live in Holland album should be proof. If you check out his set lists when he performed there, all of his songs were danceable with major emphasis on the sebenes.  Franco knew who to cater to. Despite what Tabu Ley said, he too knew who to cater to when he was outside of Africa. White people can't understand songs like Jugement or Mauvais Temps, it does nothing for them because they don't understand Lingala. If the sebene wasn't/isn't important, why is it being copied and duplicated all over Africa? You can hear it in Afro Pop and Coupe Decale.

Quote
You're listing songs with sebens, but you can't prove that Franco success came from those seben. If the seben was so important why in most cases the seben part was smaller than the rumba part ? And how many pure seben songs back then ? A lot of songs also did not have seben. You can't prove that seben is what drove people outside of Congo to listen to our music. It's something people always claimed but they can't prove it.

Once again you're putting words in my mouth.  I never said Franco's success came from sebene.  His success came from nkisi (I'm kidding). All jokes aside, you're right, some songs didn't have sebene, but it was rare.  There was a story in another forum told by PC Mpondolo, I think, about Papa Noel wanting to play solo like the guitarists in Zaiko and the other younger bands but Franco told him to keep it simple and it worked.The reason why the sebene was shorter? They all had messages. Those songs were carefully arranged and crafted. You also have to look at the times.  We didn't have CDs or MP3s back then.  Candidat Na Biso Mobutu, is over 20 minutes long and had to be broken up into two sides on an EP.

But I ask you again, why don't we have white people commenting on this forum, compared to 10 years ago? It's because after Sens Interdiet and Droit Chemin, the music changed. Too many of them, some whom I am still friends with to this day, will tell you that the music sounds too R&B and nothing for them to dance to. I let one of them listen to Marlene de Reve by Watanabe and told him to listen for OK Jazz elements and he told me he couldn't get past the R&B. Just out of curiosity, how long have you lived outside of Africa?

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Once again, the seben of the 60's is way different from what we call seben today.

You're busy trying to argue with me, but I've been saying this ALL along. The definition is definitely skewed. Fact of the matter is, whether it is a generique or in a rhumba, a sebene is a sebene, no matter how you try to spin it.

You're the one who started talking about white people/europeans. The debate I had with CM Prince was about whether seben was the main thing that attracted people outside of Congo to our music.

When you start talking about congolese music being played outside, we're talking about Africa. That's our field. Our music is not played in Europe. It's not played in mainstream radio; it's not played in mainstream shows on TV. It will appear from time to time when they want something "exotic". Talking about white listeners of our music is basically an anecdote.

You brought Franco's performance in Utrecht, it was a festival, not a concert. The only time you'll see african musicians playing african music in front of huge crowd of white people is in festivals. That's it. Of course, Franco gave them "shake your ass" music. That's the caricatural vision the average casual european listener has when it comes to african music. I'm sure most of these guys in that Utrecht show could not tell you the difference between Franco and Fela Kuti. And when the festival was done, they went back listening to Led Zepelin and Pink Floyd.

When Koffi was at his peak, when he was the biggest african musician, he filled bERcy and the crowd was 90% (maybe more) african. How many time a congolese musician charted in Europe ?

In reality, europeans who really listen to congolese music, the same way africans do, are extremely rare. It's a niche.

So when we're talking about congolese music being played outside, we are talking about Africa. That's it. Talking about white listeners or white commentators is irrelevant.



Paysan Congolais #48 on: May 10, 2018, 10:44

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What is killing our music is mixing it with the Rap / RnB style. Ferré QQJD's album is a good return to the sources even though the generiques are a failure. What we need is also to find sebenes as violent as Loi, Kibuisa Mpimpa, Trop c'est trop ...

Rumba is not as intriguing to people as sebene

Yep.

I hate those Hip-Hop/RnB rumba with a passion. Once again, I blame Fally for its spreading.


I'll never be a big fan of this generation, but if Ferre manage to give us excellent seben, he'll be the indisputed king of his generation.

BrazzaBoy #49 on: May 10, 2018, 14:09

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Having white members on a forum does not mean white people listen to our music. I know white people who like pondu but I'll never say that white people like to eat our food. You're turning anecdote into rule. Congolese music was never popular among westerners. The fact that some white people with a big curiosity were interested in our music does not change that. Our music was popular in Congo and Africa. The average african man listened to congolese music. The average westerner did not know about it or did not care about it. This is like saying that Africans listened to Johnny Haliday. It's not true, even though you'll find some Africans who listened to him.

You're putting words in my mouth.  I never said white people as a whole listen and enjoy African music.  My point was, don't think that the music was only listened to in Africa.  Franco's Live in Holland album should be proof. If you check out his set lists when he performed there, all of his songs were danceable with major emphasis on the sebenes.  Franco knew who to cater to. Despite what Tabu Ley said, he too knew who to cater to when he was outside of Africa. White people can't understand songs like Jugement or Mauvais Temps, it does nothing for them because they don't understand Lingala. If the sebene wasn't/isn't important, why is it being copied and duplicated all over Africa? You can hear it in Afro Pop and Coupe Decale.

Quote
You're listing songs with sebens, but you can't prove that Franco success came from those seben. If the seben was so important why in most cases the seben part was smaller than the rumba part ? And how many pure seben songs back then ? A lot of songs also did not have seben. You can't prove that seben is what drove people outside of Congo to listen to our music. It's something people always claimed but they can't prove it.

Once again you're putting words in my mouth.  I never said Franco's success came from sebene.  His success came from nkisi (I'm kidding). All jokes aside, you're right, some songs didn't have sebene, but it was rare.  There was a story in another forum told by PC Mpondolo, I think, about Papa Noel wanting to play solo like the guitarists in Zaiko and the other younger bands but Franco told him to keep it simple and it worked.The reason why the sebene was shorter? They all had messages. Those songs were carefully arranged and crafted. You also have to look at the times.  We didn't have CDs or MP3s back then.  Candidat Na Biso Mobutu, is over 20 minutes long and had to be broken up into two sides on an EP.

But I ask you again, why don't we have white people commenting on this forum, compared to 10 years ago? It's because after Sens Interdiet and Droit Chemin, the music changed. Too many of them, some whom I am still friends with to this day, will tell you that the music sounds too R&B and nothing for them to dance to. I let one of them listen to Marlene de Reve by Watanabe and told him to listen for OK Jazz elements and he told me he couldn't get past the R&B. Just out of curiosity, how long have you lived outside of Africa?

Quote
Once again, the seben of the 60's is way different from what we call seben today.

You're busy trying to argue with me, but I've been saying this ALL along. The definition is definitely skewed. Fact of the matter is, whether it is a generique or in a rhumba, a sebene is a sebene, no matter how you try to spin it.

You're the one who started talking about white people/europeans. The debate I had with CM Prince was about whether seben was the main thing that attracted people outside of Congo to our music.

When you start talking about congolese music being played outside, we're talking about Africa. That's our field. Our music is not played in Europe. It's not played in mainstream radio; it's not played in mainstream shows on TV. It will appear from time to time when they want something "exotic". Talking about white listeners of our music is basically an anecdote.

You brought Franco's performance in Utrecht, it was a festival, not a concert. The only time you'll see african musicians playing african music in front of huge crowd of white people is in festivals. That's it. Of course, Franco gave them "shake your ass" music. That's the caricatural vision the average casual european listener has when it comes to african music. I'm sure most of these guys in that Utrecht show could not tell you the difference between Franco and Fela Kuti. And when the festival was done, they went back listening to Led Zepelin and Pink Floyd.

When Koffi was at his peak, when he was the biggest african musician, he filled bERcy and the crowd was 90% (maybe more) african. How many time a congolese musician charted in Europe ?

In reality, europeans who really listen to congolese music, the same way africans do, are extremely rare. It's a niche.

So when we're talking about congolese music being played outside, we are talking about Africa. That's it. Talking about white listeners or white commentators is irrelevant.


Ouch ;D waiting to see what the reply will be but holy shit Paysan. Glad im not on the other hsnd of that debate lol it’d be hard to come with a rebuttal to this

Tata Nkiadi #50 on: May 10, 2018, 16:03

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Ouch ;D waiting to see what the reply will be but holy shit Paysan. Glad im not on the other hsnd of that debate lol it’d be hard to come with a rebuttal to this

He’s in the minority. I don’t know what’s funnier, the fact that he’s only arguing with me but everyone else has come to the same conclusion about the sebene, or the fact that I can tear down every thing he says and he’ll come back with opinions rather than facts. It’s like the GOP defending Donald Trump on TV. It’s no longer worth my time. He can keep the boring rhumbas with no sebene. People like what they like. Where is Adoyo when I need him lol

BrazzaBoy #51 on: May 10, 2018, 18:14

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Ouch ;D waiting to see what the reply will be but holy shit Paysan. Glad im not on the other hsnd of that debate lol it’d be hard to come with a rebuttal to this

He’s in the minority. I don’t know what’s funnier, the fact that he’s only arguing with me but everyone else has come to the same conclusion about the sebene, or the fact that I can tear down every thing he says and he’ll come back with opinions rather than facts. It’s like the GOP defending Donald Trump on TV. It’s no longer worth my time. He can keep the boring rhumbas with no sebene. People like what they like. Where is Adoyo when I need him lol

Lol go ahead then. Im curious to see your rebuttal. I love good debates, and I cant even remember what you guys are arguing but the last one of his messages did have a lot of great logical points.

I personally love both rumbas and sebenes so I dont have a dog in this fight. Just a fan of good healthy debates.

Paysan Congolais #52 on: May 10, 2018, 18:49

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Ouch ;D waiting to see what the reply will be but holy shit Paysan. Glad im not on the other hsnd of that debate lol it’d be hard to come with a rebuttal to this

He’s in the minority. I don’t know what’s funnier, the fact that he’s only arguing with me but everyone else has come to the same conclusion about the sebene, or the fact that I can tear down every thing he says and he’ll come back with opinions rather than facts. It’s like the GOP defending Donald Trump on TV. It’s no longer worth my time. He can keep the boring rhumbas with no sebene. People like what they like. Where is Adoyo when I need him lol

Being in a minority ?

LOL. Who cares ?  Do you think this is a beauty contest ? Also, do you need back-up to state your point ?

Everybody reached the same conclusion ?

Yeah, SIMPLICITY's post is a clear example...

Boring rhumba with no sebene ?

This is so ridiculous it's almost funny !

Yeah, I'll keep listening to "boring" rumbas. Some of us love and value the genre in all its aspects, and not only the seben part.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 19:00 by Paysan Congolais »

BG-ground #53 on: May 11, 2018, 08:27

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I thought since we sort of know where members stand with which artists/groups and music time periods we like, it’d be interesting to know opinions you have that aren’t of popular opinion. I think alternative viewpoints can make for interesting discussions/debates.

- People gave Werra crap for his singing abilities, but in recent years... there some times where I think JB is an overrated singer as blasphemous as it sounds. Particularly when I watch some of his later concerts. After TH and Internet, it seemed to me he wasn’t putting that much effort into his singing like he used to. Makaba really brought best out of him in the golden era Wenge 4x4 BCBG TT. I am well aware that part of the reason is because of the period of vache maigre he went through during the mid-2000’s.

- I think Evoloko Lay Lay was the worst leader/singer. I was a big fan of his dances like “Dallas” way back in the day, but his singing voice always seemed to be a cheap version of Wemba’s. In some songs his voice sounds like a whining child. He is good on chorus though.

His featuring on 13eme apotre was disappointing. Cindy was doing too much also.


- Koffi completely lost consistency after BEK. I struggle to listen (or want to listen) to just about all his albums post-2008, but I think most of us agree on that.


Love this topic and couldn’t agree more on the points u made....shocking in recent years i started admitting to my friend  JB had it easy! For a guy like me who skipped classes or got in trouble during BCBG vs MM era it shocks my friends...but they kniw if Makaba had started his own band with Same energy Tata Started Tonya Tonya, id go there.

Concerning the older genenration ahaha..Tho Evoloko’s voice did not annoy me like it did with many members here! Me it will always be Likinga’s voice that i can never stand! I like his songs...but when sang by JP Buse or Adamo

The other guy is Mashakado,my dad’s fav member....beside bringing the show with is extra dancing, his voice never impressed me! Same with his musical career

Mopao195 #54 on: May 17, 2021, 18:55

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the mabanga shit is stupid why cant these people name be written in the cd booklet or something lol why do I have to hear Heritier Itele, Lorenzo etc name and sometimes make songs a little intolerable like on Eternellement,Ligne 11 and more
i dont know what this means but its hard

Magalie alati string, Magalie alati jupe ya mokuse, Magalie
a biper mbila
Tchepamba tchepamba techpamba

Mfumu Vata #55 on: May 17, 2021, 19:07

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congo-243 #56 on: May 17, 2021, 20:13

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Manzambi94 #57 on: May 17, 2021, 22:22

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the mabanga shit is stupid why cant these people name be written in the cd booklet or something lol why do I have to hear Heritier Itele, Lorenzo etc name and sometimes make songs a little intolerable like on Eternellement,Ligne 11 and more
Cause that's how they make money, a random guy named El Double Kamidiora Francisco Mujinga Mulamba Madiola gives you 1000 dollars to sing his name, what you finna do? And when the Mulamba Madiola becomes a 100 and all give between 1000 and 5000 dollars what you will do refusing? If Internet was wide spread in Congo and there weren't so much piracy on Congolese music we wouldn't hear Mabangas, anyway to me what kill the genre was this obsession in following Nigerian for Older artists and to just make Rhumba like the young guys are doing, I can listen to Deplick crying one a week but not a whole year of him and But Na Fillet crying about their exes

Grandpretre #58 on: May 17, 2021, 23:59

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- Bek is better than monde arabe
- Even if ql use to « steal » animations, ql/koffi’s discography remain the greatest of our music
- Savanet depitcho is a great singer
- bouro cant sing no more since 2010
- Bercy aint the best koffi’s concert
- Jordan kusa is a good singer
- Bek is one of the best arranged album of congo
- Junior kingombe outshined every singer in monde arabe
- nono ba diamant in th>>>>> nono ba diamant in v12, loi & olympia


Kizito #59 on: May 18, 2021, 10:23

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Feux D Amour is the best arranged album of Clan Wenge
Pentagon the best Group Album
Alain Makaba is overrated, he is a good soloist but not overall good musician as he is being portrayed, he has done nothing notable post Wenge
JB Mpiana is the most talented, Most charismatic and most lazy Musician of Wenge, if he had half the aggressiveness of Werrason or Koffi olomide , he would have been the best ever Musician of Congo, but he is still the best of his generation
Werrason is a very good tactician and the most aggressive of the Wenge Clan, he is the brain behind most of the strategies. Those characters helped him to build Maison Merre into a formidable force,  but he cannot sing to help himself.
Adolph Dominguez was lucky to be a member of Wenge, out of Wenge he would be nobody
Koffi Olomide albums were better arranged than those of Wenge, that is why he had a good following in Africa. Since most of Fans do not understand Lingala, they always go for well arranged album. I was surprised to learn that Force D intervention Rapide was a success in Congo, the album was very poor arranged, Titanic was the best Album of that year.