Seben is not what got people outside of Congo to love our music. Congolese music was played all over Africa since the 60's. Mbilia Bel is one of the most famous african musician in Latin America, especially Colombia, she never played seben. Franco was famous all over Africa, even the world. He wasn't a seben based musician.

There's a common misconception on what the sebene really is.  in Marie Louise, Wendo Kolosoy yelled out in a "Yoka sebene" and the guitarists plucked out danceable melodies and rhythms, in a rhumba song.  When it comes to the sebene, nakoyoka ba kulutus.  They're the pioneers before Wenge, Zaiko, African Jazz etc.  So when I hear people like you say, people outside of Congo don't care about the sebene, that's not true.  To many Europeans, the sebene can be in a rhumba song.  Franco thrived on the sebene: the danceable instrumental ending of a song.

Somehow through the Evolution of Congolese music, the sebene has been misconstrued to only belong to fast paced songs like generiques.  I blame this on Soukous and Ndombolo.

There's a common misconception on what the sebene really is.  in Marie Louise, Wendo Kolosoy yelled out in a "Yoka sebene" and the guitarists plucked out danceable melodies and rhythms, in a rhumba song.  When it comes to the sebene, nakoyoka ba kulutus.  They're the pioneers before Wenge, Zaiko, African Jazz etc.  So when I hear people like you say, people outside of Congo don't care about the sebene, that's not true.  To many Europeans, the sebene can be in a rhumba song.  Franco thrived on the sebene: the danceable instrumental ending of a song.

Somehow through the Evolution of Congolese music, the sebene has been misconstrued to only belong to fast paced songs like generiques.  I blame this on Soukous and Ndombolo.

There's a common misconception on what the sebene really is.  in Marie Louise, Wendo Kolosoy yelled out in a "Yoka sebene" and the guitarists plucked out danceable melodies and rhythms, in a rhumba song.  When it comes to the sebene, nakoyoka ba kulutus.  They're the pioneers before Wenge, Zaiko, African Jazz etc.  So when I hear people like you say, people outside of Congo don't care about the sebene, that's not true.  To many Europeans, the sebene can be in a rhumba song.  Franco thrived on the sebene: the danceable instrumental ending of a song.

Somehow through the Evolution of Congolese music, the sebene has been misconstrued to only belong to fast paced songs like generiques.  I blame this on Soukous and Ndombolo.

The Sebene used to mean the instrumental break in those hits of yore that you cite.

In those songs, the song would start slow, with the message or the story of the song being told. This would normally be where the vocalists would display their talent, with first voice, second voice and sometimes a chorus to reprise the hook line.

After the story is told, it was time to Dance!

The song would speed up, and it was time for the instrumentalists to display their art. Optionally you would also have  the hook line reprised over and over, but sometimes you would have shout outs either to the instrumentalist who happened to be displaying their skill at that section, or call out a fan, donor e.t.c.

After the instrumental break ( Sebene)  the song would slow down again,  mostly with the chorus or reprise fading to the end.

Nowadays the Sebene has come to mean a song that starts slowly and then speeds up to a climax.
Contrast this with a Rumba which is a song that is sung on an even (mostly slow) tempo throughout.

A Generique is just the instrumental (Fast tempo) part, with cries (Shout outs) focusing mostly on mabangas, attacks or praises,
with little or no message.

I normally compare generiques to the raps and diss tracks in the Western hip Hop genre.

You would be right to attribute the generiques to the Soukuos/Ndombolo Era, where quantity ( Not necessarily quality) matters,
and it doesn't take much to be a generique musician....

Seben is not what got people outside of Congo to love our music. Congolese music was played all over Africa since the 60's. Mbilia Bel is one of the most famous african musician in Latin America, especially Colombia, she never played seben. Franco was famous all over Africa, even the world. He wasn't a seben based musician.

There's a common misconception on what the sebene really is.  in Marie Louise, Wendo Kolosoy yelled out in a "Yoka sebene" and the guitarists plucked out danceable melodies and rhythms, in a rhumba song.  When it comes to the sebene, nakoyoka ba kulutus.  They're the pioneers before Wenge, Zaiko, African Jazz etc.  So when I hear people like you say, people outside of Congo don't care about the sebene, that's not true.  To many Europeans, the sebene can be in a rhumba song.  Franco thrived on the sebene: the danceable instrumental ending of a song.

Somehow through the Evolution of Congolese music, the sebene has been misconstrued to only belong to fast paced songs like generiques.  I blame this on Soukous and Ndombolo.

What they called seven in the 50's and 60's like Mwana Mokili said is different from war we call seben since Zaiko and Manuaku. What they called seben was just a small part of the song. And nobody was singing, just instrumentalists displaying their skills on a fastest pace.

Tabu Ley, one the most famous and successful congolese musician in Congo and abroad even criticized Koffi after Effrakata because, according to him, he put too much seben and forgot pure rumba.


Saying Franco thrived on the seben is basically blasphemy.
Plus, where do you get the idea that : 1) european listened to our music 2) it was because of "seben"

Evoloko was totally overrated singer in the Zaiko age. He was never that special to begin with. Unfortunately people such as my idols Franco and Pepe Kalle thought he was "special". This man was a wreck in making. His voice is so annoying. He is not the worst singer but he is not the best at all. For some reason my parents love his songs so much that they always want me to play them. I don't know what they see special about him. SMH.

Koffi Olomide was better with Josky than with everyone else. Josky and Koffi Olomide had a special musical connection that Koffi did not have with anyone else. Josky gave Koffi the chance to express himself in many ways.

Franco was better with Vicky Longomba than with Madilu System or Youlou Mabiala. Franco and Vicky understood each other well musically better than they did with others. Vicky was a classical tenor singer while Franco was a wild baritone singer and they mashed to a accurate harmony.

Nyboma belonged to Pepe Kalle and not Madilu. Pepe Kalle made Nyboma a better singer than anyone else. Including Koffi Olomide, Wuta Mayi, Madilu, and others.

Papa Wemba should have done a duet song with Ntesa Dalienst. Ntesa and Papa Wemba would have been a better duo

Franco should have gotten Tino Minkwa into OKJ. He would have been a great addition into OKJ.

Fally Ipupa and Heritier need to do a duet together

Madilu, Papa Wemba and Tabu Ley would have been a great trio.

Koffi Olomide was very jealous of the Wenge Musica style of music.

and I got more but that is what I got so far.

That's not true, more people will dance to Solola Bien than Ndombolo ya Solo. little kids born in the late 90's and 2000's dont even know hot to dance Ndombolo Ya Solo, since that there isn't a videoclip. While Solola Bien is each year promoted on Instagram-pages. It's also many times very rare to hear Ndombolo Ya Solo on parties or it had to be a 50th anniversairy of someone or people who like JB Mpiana alot. If they put generics of JB Mpiana then it's mostly only Mpunda and Kipe Ya Yo (Lopele).

In Congolese weddings and parties, Ndombolo and Loi are more played than Solola bien when it comes to throwback. Intervention rapide is basically never mentioned at all. Even on Youtube Loi and Ndombolo Ya Solo has more views than Solola Bien.

Evoloko was totally overrated singer in the Zaiko age. He was never that special to begin with. Unfortunately people such as my idols Franco and Pepe Kalle thought he was "special". This man was a wreck in making. His voice is so annoying. He is not the worst singer but he is not the best at all. For some reason my parents love his songs so much that they always want me to play them. I don't know what they see special about him. SMH.

Koffi Olomide was better with Josky than with everyone else. Josky and Koffi Olomide had a special musical connection that Koffi did not have with anyone else. Josky gave Koffi the chance to express himself in many ways.

Franco was better with Vicky Longomba than with Madilu System or Youlou Mabiala. Franco and Vicky understood each other well musically better than they did with others. Vicky was a classical tenor singer while Franco was a wild baritone singer and they mashed to a accurate harmony.

Nyboma belonged to Pepe Kalle and not Madilu. Pepe Kalle made Nyboma a better singer than anyone else. Including Koffi Olomide, Wuta Mayi, Madilu, and others.

Papa Wemba should have done a duet song with Ntesa Dalienst. Ntesa and Papa Wemba would have been a better duo

Franco should have gotten Tino Minkwa into OKJ. He would have been a great addition into OKJ.

Fally Ipupa and Heritier need to do a duet together

Madilu, Papa Wemba and Tabu Ley would have been a great trio.

Koffi Olomide was very jealous of the Wenge Musica style of music.

and I got more but that is what I got so far.

That's not true, more people will dance to Solola Bien than Ndombolo ya Solo. little kids born in the late 90's and 2000's dont even know hot to dance Ndombolo Ya Solo, since that there isn't a videoclip. While Solola Bien is each year promoted on Instagram-pages. It's also many times very rare to hear Ndombolo Ya Solo on parties or it had to be a 50th anniversairy of someone or people who like JB Mpiana alot. If they put generics of JB Mpiana then it's mostly only Mpunda and Kipe Ya Yo (Lopele).

In Congolese weddings and parties, Ndombolo and Loi are more played than Solola bien when it comes to throwback. Intervention rapide is basically never mentioned at all. Even on Youtube Loi and Ndombolo Ya Solo has more views than Solola Bien.

Huh? Jb mpiana ndombolo is never played at parties, Solola bien is played almost all the time as for intervention Rapide only likelemba is played but only sometimes

Saying Franco thrived on the seben is basically blasphemy.
Plus, where do you get the idea that : 1) european listened to our music 2) it was because of "seben"

Ask ANYONE here who have been a part of these forum groups for 15+ years and they will tell you, we had white members here.  Ask those same people why those white members don't contribute anymore.  Ask those same members who contributed faithfully to these forums, providing the latest news and reviews on new and past albums; who collected newspaper clippings and books; who attended concerts when artists like Koffi, Wenge, Zaiko or even Franco in the 80s came to their towns; ask those same members who spun Congolese tunes on their local radio stations; or even ask them about the journalists who wrote countless online articles about the evolution of Zaiko and its various offshoot groups like Choc Stars and Langa Langa Stars; ask about the photographers; and LASTLY ask them who had countless records, tapes and CDs spanning over three decades.  They will honestly tell you, they were white people.  Before we had Archos, we had those people and their resources. 

As for your argument about Franco and the seben, danceable instrumentals are what he played!  Chacun Por Soi, Tala Ba Pesa Merci, AZDA etc. All had sebenes. (I'm probably one of the biggest Franco fan on this forum next to FPK). This new/current meaning of a sebènè is a way to distort what it really is according to history. 

Even historians and researchers say the same thing.

Evoloko was totally overrated singer in the Zaiko age. He was never that special to begin with. Unfortunately people such as my idols Franco and Pepe Kalle thought he was "special". This man was a wreck in making. His voice is so annoying. He is not the worst singer but he is not the best at all. For some reason my parents love his songs so much that they always want me to play them. I don't know what they see special about him. SMH.

Koffi Olomide was better with Josky than with everyone else. Josky and Koffi Olomide had a special musical connection that Koffi did not have with anyone else. Josky gave Koffi the chance to express himself in many ways.

Franco was better with Vicky Longomba than with Madilu System or Youlou Mabiala. Franco and Vicky understood each other well musically better than they did with others. Vicky was a classical tenor singer while Franco was a wild baritone singer and they mashed to a accurate harmony.

Nyboma belonged to Pepe Kalle and not Madilu. Pepe Kalle made Nyboma a better singer than anyone else. Including Koffi Olomide, Wuta Mayi, Madilu, and others.

Papa Wemba should have done a duet song with Ntesa Dalienst. Ntesa and Papa Wemba would have been a better duo

Franco should have gotten Tino Minkwa into OKJ. He would have been a great addition into OKJ.

Fally Ipupa and Heritier need to do a duet together

Madilu, Papa Wemba and Tabu Ley would have been a great trio.

Koffi Olomide was very jealous of the Wenge Musica style of music.

and I got more but that is what I got so far.

Hahaha say that right in the face to people who were born in the 50's and who witness the succes of Zaiko's Amujagi generation 1971-1974 and they will beat you in your face. Say that even in Koffi's face and he will say that are crazy in your head. It's because of Evoloko that Wemba changed his singing-style Wemba himself was a big fan of Evoloko in Zaiko. Wemba copied Evoloko's singing-style. The problem with Evoloko is that he doesn't do any effort with his voice anymore, since he became the only leader in Langa Langa Stars back in 1985. Back in the years 1973, 74, 75 & 76 every boy wanted to be like Evoloko. Evoloko & Gina Efonge are with Tabu Ley the idols of the most guys born in the 70's. If Evoloko wasn't jealous then Wemba wouldn't get a chance to succeed in his solo career.

That is why my statement is more valid. He was made a bigger than he was actually. Everyone wanted to be like him. That is including my parents especially my dad who was born in the 1950s indeed. He would always tell me how his songs were so strong and impacted many lives. I would look at my dad and go REALLY. Listen to Franco, Tabu Ley, Pepe Kalle (when he was young at this time), Bella Bella, and others before you start falling over heels of a overrated singer at best. It is unfortunate because they were better talent than this "Evoloko" person that was given.

BTW Evoloko would have been better off if he and Gina Efonge got together and form a band together. They actually sound very nice together. They complement their crazy voices. Listen to the beginning of the song Dechaence, you will see beautiful harmony between Evoloko and Gina together.

Another example was Mbeya Mbeya remix here. It was with Bozi Boziana. Evoloko and Gina mix well together musically

Here is another unpopular opinion for everyone.

Papy Tex sounded much better with a voice of Madilu rather than a voice of Pepe Kalle. Madilu and Papy Tex have raspy effects in their styles of singing. Madilu's baritone and Papy Tex's tenor styles mixed together much more than Pepe Kalle's baritone with Papy Tex's tenor as well as Madilu's baritone with Nyboma's tenor.

This debate about sebene and rhumba is so tired but will never end on this forum because people prefer different things. If you love sebene, make sure you collect all available sebene songs(and there are a million of them) and enjoy but dont force it down people's throats that sebene is better than rhumba and the same applies to rhumba lovers. A good example is Kenya where sebene is almost non-existent. Take a sampling of all popular clubs not just in Nairobi but even in small towns like Mlolongo, Migori,Kitengela and you will never hear sebene being played.Yet almost all these towns have full time rhumba clubs with Kitengela and Mlolongo for example having clubs named Rhumba House . In Nairobi for example Ali Mayimona is already on rotation at Samba, the Signature chain of clubs, yet the same revellers are totally clueless about Kelvis Nkoyi or Diemba for that matter. In Kenya people know Ferre more for Kamasutra than for Boss or Seben or all his generiques. The most popular song by Fally in Kenya is Associe and the official Koffi song over here is Fouta Djallon. So in DRC seben may be popular but over here nobody cares about sebene and just wants to listen to rhumba. It is a relative topic so insisting everyday that sebene or rhumba is better is like arguing over which one between apples and oranges is better!!!!You are entitled to a preference and an opinion but not everyone shares that preference/opinion.

Saying Franco thrived on the seben is basically blasphemy.
Plus, where do you get the idea that : 1) european listened to our music 2) it was because of "seben"

Ask ANYONE here who have been a part of these forum groups for 15+ years and they will tell you, we had white members here.  Ask those same people why those white members don't contribute anymore.  Ask those same members who contributed faithfully to these forums, providing the latest news and reviews on new and past albums; who collected newspaper clippings and books; who attended concerts when artists like Koffi, Wenge, Zaiko or even Franco in the 80s came to their towns; ask those same members who spun Congolese tunes on their local radio stations; or even ask them about the journalists who wrote countless online articles about the evolution of Zaiko and its various offshoot groups like Choc Stars and Langa Langa Stars; ask about the photographers; and LASTLY ask them who had countless records, tapes and CDs spanning over three decades.  They will honestly tell you, they were white people.  Before we had Archos, we had those people and their resources. 

As for your argument about Franco and the seben, danceable instrumentals are what he played!  Chacun Por Soi, Tala Ba Pesa Merci, AZDA etc. All had sebenes. (I'm probably one of the biggest Franco fan on this forum next to FPK). This new/current meaning of a sebènè is a way to distort what it really is according to history. 

Even historians and researchers say the same thing.

Having white members on a forum does not mean white people listen to our music. I know white people who like pondu but I'll never say that white people like to eat our food. You're turning anecdote into rule. Congolese music was never popular among westerners. The fact that some white people with a big curiosity were interested in our music does not change that. Our music was popular in Congo and Africa. The average african man listened to congolese music. The average westerner did not know about it or did not care about it. This is like saying that Africans listened to Johnny Haliday. It's not true, even though you'll find some Africans who listened to him.

You're listing songs with sebens, but you can't prove that Franco success came from those seben. If the seben was so important why in most cases the seben part was smaller than the rumba part ? And how many pure seben songs back then ? A lot of songs also did not have seben. You can't prove that seben is what drove people outside of Congo to listen to our music. It's something people always claimed but they can't prove it. 

Once again, the seben of the 60's is way different from what we call seben today. And to be honest, I don't take wikipedia and its sources seriously when it comes to our culture.

my take on this is debate is this one,what made our music popular is ability to make people dance,odemba and fiesta have a dancing flavor to them with the  drum tempo,saxo and so on,then soukous came still making people dance,then ndombolo came while another form of rumba which people summarize as tchatcho popped up and established itself as by far the most used nowadays(especially as many automatically call computer rumbas tchatcho these days)
most of today's rumbas are danced just for the sake of dancing together,put songs like fatimata on african parties with our parents of african countries or ourselves as adults now and put those current computer rumbas you'll see the difference of excitement to dance
listen for example to when koffi sang coucou with drums dictating tempo and whatever full of effects rumba of nowadays,i bet you'll sense something,the fact people could dance and at the same time hear lyrics well made a looooot of people want to learn lingala back since our parents or grand parents

Having white members on a forum does not mean white people listen to our music. I know white people who like pondu but I'll never say that white people like to eat our food. You're turning anecdote into rule. Congolese music was never popular among westerners. The fact that some white people with a big curiosity were interested in our music does not change that. Our music was popular in Congo and Africa. The average african man listened to congolese music. The average westerner did not know about it or did not care about it. This is like saying that Africans listened to Johnny Haliday. It's not true, even though you'll find some Africans who listened to him.

You're putting words in my mouth.  I never said white people as a whole listen and enjoy African music.  My point was, don't think that the music was only listened to in Africa.  Franco's Live in Holland album should be proof. If you check out his set lists when he performed there, all of his songs were danceable with major emphasis on the sebenes.  Franco knew who to cater to. Despite what Tabu Ley said, he too knew who to cater to when he was outside of Africa. White people can't understand songs like Jugement or Mauvais Temps, it does nothing for them because they don't understand Lingala. If the sebene wasn't/isn't important, why is it being copied and duplicated all over Africa? You can hear it in Afro Pop and Coupe Decale.

You're listing songs with sebens, but you can't prove that Franco success came from those seben. If the seben was so important why in most cases the seben part was smaller than the rumba part ? And how many pure seben songs back then ? A lot of songs also did not have seben. You can't prove that seben is what drove people outside of Congo to listen to our music. It's something people always claimed but they can't prove it.

Once again you're putting words in my mouth.  I never said Franco's success came from sebene.  His success came from nkisi (I'm kidding). All jokes aside, you're right, some songs didn't have sebene, but it was rare.  There was a story in another forum told by PC Mpondolo, I think, about Papa Noel wanting to play solo like the guitarists in Zaiko and the other younger bands but Franco told him to keep it simple and it worked.The reason why the sebene was shorter? They all had messages. Those songs were carefully arranged and crafted. You also have to look at the times.  We didn't have CDs or MP3s back then.  Candidat Na Biso Mobutu, is over 20 minutes long and had to be broken up into two sides on an EP.

But I ask you again, why don't we have white people commenting on this forum, compared to 10 years ago? It's because after Sens Interdiet and Droit Chemin, the music changed. Too many of them, some whom I am still friends with to this day, will tell you that the music sounds too R&B and nothing for them to dance to. I let one of them listen to Marlene de Reve by Watanabe and told him to listen for OK Jazz elements and he told me he couldn't get past the R&B. Just out of curiosity, how long have you lived outside of Africa?

Once again, the seben of the 60's is way different from what we call seben today.

You're busy trying to argue with me, but I've been saying this ALL along. The definition is definitely skewed. Fact of the matter is, whether it is a generique or in a rhumba, a sebene is a sebene, no matter how you try to spin it.

Whats these other forums you guys speak of

Whats these other forums you guys speak of

Many of us are migrants from different forums that existed prior to this forum and got deleted for various reasons. One time Werra's people didn't like what we were say about them (constructive criticism) so they got Vibes d'Afrique deleted in 2011 or so, if I remember correctly... thats why there's a Werrason-only section above that we no longer really use.

A lot of the great contributors from the past are Martin Sinnock "Muana Machete", Papa PC (the great contrarian ), Ronald, Frank, Haha Le Prof (Koffiphile #1), Yvonne, Ms T, Heri and more used to contribute so much for Congolese music online with articles, concert footage, and opinions, but they all no longer participate, which is pretty sad and a direct refelection of the state of Congolese music. I learned a lot from them, since those days i wasn't contributing as much with posts.

Some of our old timers here are DJ Sly, Emo, Archos, Werrasonique de Zimbabwe, Tata Nkiadi, Nyumu Wa Mukiti, Bencuri, Ken Bilele & Mwana Nsalu (may she rest in peace)

Bencurri the youtube legend. I was so happy to see he was part of this forum.