Congo Vibes
Music => Congolese Music => Topic started by: Matebu on May 01, 2018, 03:11
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I thought since we sort of know where members stand with which artists/groups and music time periods we like, it’d be interesting to know opinions you have that aren’t of popular opinion. I think alternative viewpoints can make for interesting discussions/debates.
- People gave Werra crap for his singing abilities, but in recent years... there some times where I think JB is an overrated singer as blasphemous as it sounds. Particularly when I watch some of his later concerts. After TH and Internet, it seemed to me he wasn’t putting that much effort into his singing like he used to. Makaba really brought best out of him in the golden era Wenge 4x4 BCBG TT. I am well aware that part of the reason is because of the period of vache maigre he went through during the mid-2000’s.
- I think Evoloko Lay Lay was the worst leader/singer. I was a big fan of his dances like “Dallas” way back in the day, but his singing voice always seemed to be a cheap version of Wemba’s. In some songs his voice sounds like a whining child. He is good on chorus though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bE2zKr2T7nQ
His featuring on 13eme apotre was disappointing. Cindy was doing too much also.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi92rFerE2U
- Koffi completely lost consistency after BEK. I struggle to listen (or want to listen) to just about all his albums post-2008, but I think most of us agree on that.
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Jb's singing is discipline,he has completely dropped on that field,you'd be surprised probably to know except makaba another person who was not messing with him on that field it was amida,she'd keep a very close eye on him on concert days and days before she'd be capable to lock all doors when he rehearsed at home so he wont move until he completes like 6 7 hours of work while now he does what he wants when he wants and he said it himself in a recent interview that he knows sometimes he is clearly out of form and sings badly to his standards but it does not bother him because he is not for him anymore in a situation where he has to put extra pressure on himself to always be close to perfection so even if he has to eat peanuts and stuff like that which can affect voice before a concert he does it ,strange how he has become so open about his lack of motivation at times
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Jb's singing is discipline,he has completely dropped on that field,you'd be surprised probably to know except makaba another person who was not messing with him on that field it was amida,she'd keep a very close eye on him on concert days and days before she'd be capable to lock all doors when he rehearsed at home so he wont move until he completes like 6 7 hours of work while now he does what he wants when he wants and he said it himself in a recent interview that he knows sometimes he is clearly out of form and sings badly to his standards but it does not bother him because he is not for him anymore in a situation where he has to put extra pressure on himself to always be close to perfection so even if he has to eat peanuts and stuff like that which can affect voice before a concert he does it ,strange how he has become so open about his lack of motivation at times
That is quite interesting and tell how much Amida was a motivating factor during his prime. With the way things have gone between the two, I highly doubt he’d public admit her strong influence on his craft.
I also believe leaders in general have a tendency to gradually decrease the amount of effort they put into their singing once they’re an «artiste comfirmé». The expectations that were initially there are gone since their fans fully embrace them... unless the artist does something truly bad.
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I thought since we sort of know where members stand with which artists/groups and music time periods we like, it’d be interesting to know opinions you have that aren’t of popular opinion. I think alternative viewpoints can make for interesting discussions/debates.
- I think Evoloko Lay Lay was the worst leader/singer. I was a big fan of his dances like “Dallas” way back in the day, but his singing voice always seemed to be a cheap version of Wemba’s. In some songs his voice sounds like a whining child. He is good on chorus though.
I thought i was the only one who thought Evoloko's singing is difficult to digest.
My Unpopular Opinions:
1) Lita Bembo
I never understood why people liked him so much. To me he was just too over-the-top and animated, the precursor to Adolphe Dominguez. Franco produced a Stukas record for his record label, so maybe he saw something in him that I still cannot see.
2) Tabu Ley was a selfish bandleader
Meeting him and spending a whole entire day with him was probably one of the greatest moments of my childhood, but the way he compensated his people in Afrisa was deplorable. You think Werra was bad, try shipping your whole band to the US, don't pay them and then abandon them, leaving them to fend for themselves.
3) Not Enough Sebenes
With the successes of Fabregas, Robinio, Heritier and others, it looks as if Congolese music is making a huge comeback, one we haven't seen since Fally & Ferre left Quartier Latin for solo careers. But here again comes the age old debate: Where are the Sebenes? What was once popular and literally took the music all over the world, is still absent from a lot of today's rumbas and if there's one, it's cut too short. Generiques aren't enough. Non-Lingala speakers, especially white people, don't understand rhumba music. They want to dance to the guitars and that was these guys' tickets to Europe. These artists just can't seem to grasp that.
4) Vulgarity/Sex Appeal
Nearly 20 years ago, my grandfather from Matete, watched a WWE show with me during the Attitude Era while he was here in the States. While watching the divas in lingerie prancing around in the ring, he said, "If women did that in Congo, they'll be in jail." Fast forward nearly 20 years later and we're seeing and hearing more sexual innuendos than before. When I was in Kinshasa in 2010, Ferre's 3eme Droight and JB's Mpunda was blazing the airwaves and the night clubs. Although still popular, a lot of church goers found those songs to be improper. Now female dancers are twerking in videos and song-writers are finding more clever ways to sing about vagina. The music is no longer for kids.
5) Mabanga
I've complained about this subject numerous times over the years and I'm tired of talking about it.
In regards to my last bullet points, maybe I'm just an old fashioned 35 year old.
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I thought since we sort of know where members stand with which artists/groups and music time periods we like, it’d be interesting to know opinions you have that aren’t of popular opinion. I think alternative viewpoints can make for interesting discussions/debates.
- I think Evoloko Lay Lay was the worst leader/singer. I was a big fan of his dances like “Dallas” way back in the day, but his singing voice always seemed to be a cheap version of Wemba’s. In some songs his voice sounds like a whining child. He is good on chorus though.
I thought i was the only one who thought Evoloko's singing is difficult to digest.
My Unpopular Opinions:
1) Lita Bembo
I never understood why people liked him so much. To me he was just too over-the-top and animated, the precursor to Adolphe Dominguez. Franco produced a Stukas record for his record label, so maybe he saw something in him that I still cannot see.
2) Tabu Ley was a selfish bandleader
Meeting him and spending a whole entire day with him was probably one of the greatest moments of my childhood, but the way he compensated his people in Afrisa was deplorable. You think Werra was bad, try shipping your whole band to the US, don't pay them and then abandon them, leaving them to fend for themselves.
3) Not Enough Sebenes
With the successes of Fabregas, Robinio, Heritier and others, it looks as if Congolese music is making a huge comeback, one we haven't seen since Fally & Ferre left Quartier Latin for solo careers. But here again comes the age old debate: Where are the Sebenes? What was once popular and literally took the music all over the world, is still absent from a lot of today's rumbas and if there's one, it's cut too short. Generiques aren't enough. Non-Lingala speakers, especially white people, don't understand rhumba music. They want to dance to the guitars and that was these guys' tickets to Europe. These artists just can't seem to grasp that.
4) Vulgarity/Sex Appeal
Nearly 20 years ago, my grandfather from Matete, watched a WWE show with me during the Attitude Era while he was here in the States. While watching the divas in lingerie prancing around in the ring, he said, "If women did that in Congo, they'll be in jail." Fast forward nearly 20 years later and we're seeing and hearing more sexual innuendos than before. When I was in Kinshasa in 2010, Ferre's 3eme Droight and JB's Mpunda was blazing the airwaves and the night clubs. Although still popular, a lot of church goers found those songs to be improper. Now female dancers are twerking in videos and song-writers are finding more clever ways to sing about vagina. The music is no longer for kids.
5) Mabanga
I've complained about this subject numerous times over the years and I'm tired of talking about it.
In regards to my last bullet points, maybe I'm just an old fashioned 35 year old.
I 100% agree with everything you've said I also find that rhumba is ridiculously overrated, the sex thing is too much and the mabanga just wow
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I 100% agree with everything you've said I also find that rhumba is ridiculously overrated, the sex thing is too much and the mabanga just wow
It's getting out of hand man. I remember artists blaming Mabanga on piracy, but everything is on the internet now. Even the poorest of the poor has a cellphone in Kin so they can access the music anytime without having to duplicate hard copies. It's simply greed. White listeners lost interest, once the sebenes were shortened or absent and mabanga became the music, prompting them to abandon the current music for Congolese oldies and music from other African nations. With the absence of white listeners, comes the difficulty to obtain Schengen visas but once they obtain the Visas, performing isn't a guarantee (for ex. Les Combattants vs. Heritier Watanabe & Le Team Wata @ L'Olympia). Add to that frustration, shady African promoters and my friend, you have the stigmas of Congolese music.
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Yes the poorest have cellophonres, but they can't watxh video's. Because it to expansive for them, since that they have to buy alot of mega's. Nobody in Kinshasa knows those internet journalists who are based in Kinshasa or the combattans who are making alot of noise on YouTube. If you go to Kinshasa you will diacover that they are bot informer about many things even about things who are gooing on in their own country.
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Yes the poorest have cellophonres, but they can't watxh video's. Because it to expansive for them, since that they have to buy alot of mega's. Nobody in Kinshasa knows those internet journalists who are based in Kinshasa or the combattans who are making alot of noise on YouTube. If you go to Kinshasa you will diacover that they are bot informer about many things even about things who are gooing on in their own country.
Maybe so, but we can't negate the fact that these are real solid issues that aren't being addressed. The point I'm making is that these issues are the reasons why the genre isn't as popular to the outside world as it once was.
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My Unpopular Opinions:
1) Lita Bembo
I never understood why people liked him so much. To me he was just too over-the-top and animated, the precursor to Adolphe Dominguez. Franco produced a Stukas record for his record label, so maybe he saw something in him that I still cannot see.
Yeah, he was supposed to be Zaire's Jimi Hendrix and his concerts antics were pretty weird. It was cool for me at first, but when I watch it now it's like watching Stino's Michael Jackson act... just tacky.
2) Tabu Ley was a selfish bandleader
Meeting him and spending a whole entire day with him was probably one of the greatest moments of my childhood, but the way he compensated his people in Afrisa was deplorable. You think Werra was bad, try shipping your whole band to the US, don't pay them and then abandon them, leaving them to fend for themselves.
I remember hearing a legend that Ley composed over 1,000 songs and it wasn't until I was an adult I found out that he got most of his compositions from his musicians and proceeded to credit himself. For me that takes away artistic integrity... with TPOK jazz the public always knew who composed what.
3) Not Enough Sebenes
With the successes of Fabregas, Robinio, Heritier and others, it looks as if Congolese music is making a huge comeback, one we haven't seen since Fally & Ferre left Quartier Latin for solo careers. But here again comes the age old debate: Where are the Sebenes? What was once popular and literally took the music all over the world, is still absent from a lot of today's rumbas and if there's one, it's cut too short. Generiques aren't enough. Non-Lingala speakers, especially white people, don't understand rhumba music. They want to dance to the guitars and that was these guys' tickets to Europe. These artists just can't seem to grasp that.
I was listening to Aurlus Mabele earlier, the man used to have 3(!) generiques on a 1 disc album, with the rest of the songs being sebene songs... excellent sebene as well. He really spoiled fans in that regard.
I wish artists didn't take Tabu Ley's criticism of sebene music so personally... at that time he was getting senile because the 4th & 5th gen artists made danc emusic so popular and earning more money than the earlier artists. My opinion.
I agree sebene needs to come back in force, but the issue I have with modern generiques is that most of them are absolute trash.. either weak atalakous, overly sexual lyrics, or the lack of good solo paritions. So yeah it needs to come back, but only if it's good.
I also like my sebene with a real drumset... I don't understand why that became so rare in recent years.
The generiques on Ferre's QQJD are so crap to me, that I just skip them. I haven't even listened to them in full. Poor sound and same exact arrangements since Derangement (2014).
4) Vulgarity/Sex Appeal
Nearly 20 years ago, my grandfather from Matete, watched a WWE show with me during the Attitude Era while he was here in the States. While watching the divas in lingerie prancing around in the ring, he said, "If women did that in Congo, they'll be in jail." Fast forward nearly 20 years later and we're seeing and hearing more sexual innuendos than before. When I was in Kinshasa in 2010, Ferre's 3eme Droight and JB's Mpunda was blazing the airwaves and the night clubs. Although still popular, a lot of church goers found those songs to be improper. Now female dancers are twerking in videos and song-writers are finding more clever ways to sing about vagina. The music is no longer for kids.
I used to watch clips with my family when I was younger, now I just can't without being on edge. It's all about finding women with the biggest a**es.
5) Mabanga
I've complained about this subject numerous times over the years and I'm tired of talking about it.
In regards to my last bullet points, maybe I'm just an old fashioned 35 year old.
Through my listening of albums over the years, I pretty sure I can link the huge surge in mabanga to Wenge, because before that artists limited mabanga to the end of songs or after verses. Now nobody cares. I remember a non-Congolese friend asked me to translate a song... and I told him it's just people names.. he then gave me a puzzled look. Aside from the Ivorian DJs, we are the only one's putting so much importance of mabanga.
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2) Tabu Ley was a selfish bandleader
Meeting him and spending a whole entire day with him was probably one of the greatest moments of my childhood, but the way he compensated his people in Afrisa was deplorable. You think Werra was bad, try shipping your whole band to the US, don't pay them and then abandon them, leaving them to fend for themselves.
I remember hearing a legend that Ley composed over 1,000 songs and it wasn't until I was an adult I found out that he got most of his compositions from his musicians and proceeded to credit himself. For me that takes away artistic integrity... with TPOK jazz the public always knew who composed what.
Very interesting rivalry Franco & Tabu Ley had. To me Afrisa were one dimensional, while OK Jazz had members who came from other groups and were given freedom to write and compose in various styles. Vieux Rochereau taking credit of his members' composition doesn't surprise me at all. It's unfortunate. While OK Jazz produced successful stars like Madilu System, Simaro, Dizzy Mandjeku, and Papa Noel, I can't name one successful artist from Afrisa aside from M'Bilia Bel.
On another note, Ley was the first person in my lifetime to open my eyes to the fact that while Zairean artists may sing songs praising their wives, offstage you wouldn't even know they were married.
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2) Tabu Ley was a selfish bandleader
Meeting him and spending a whole entire day with him was probably one of the greatest moments of my childhood, but the way he compensated his people in Afrisa was deplorable. You think Werra was bad, try shipping your whole band to the US, don't pay them and then abandon them, leaving them to fend for themselves.
I remember hearing a legend that Ley composed over 1,000 songs and it wasn't until I was an adult I found out that he got most of his compositions from his musicians and proceeded to credit himself. For me that takes away artistic integrity... with TPOK jazz the public always knew who composed what.
Very interesting rivalry Franco & Tabu Ley had. To me Afrisa were one dimensional, while OK Jazz had members who came from other groups and were given freedom to write and compose in various styles. Vieux Rochereau taking credit of his members' composition doesn't surprise me at all. It's unfortunate. While OK Jazz produced successful stars like Madilu System, Simaro, Dizzy Mandjeku, and Papa Noel, I can't name one successful artist from Afrisa aside from M'Bilia Bel.
On another note, Ley was the first person in my lifetime to open my eyes to the fact that while Zairean artists may sing songs praising their wives, offstage you wouldn't even know they were married.
Sam Mangwana na who left in 1967 to create Les Marquisard recruiting Ntesa Dalienst and co. Also Paul Ndombe who went to create Afrizam until that Tabu Key & Franco went to kill his band, like they used to do to many bands of the 60's & 70's who were a treath to their hegemony. Which made stars like Ntesa, Kiambukuta, Ndombe, Kiese Diambu end up in TPOK Jazz
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Sam Mangwana na who left in 1967 to create Les Marquisard recruiting Ntesa Dalienst and co. Also Paul Ndombe who went to create Afrizam until that Tabu Key & Franco went to kill his band, like they used to do to many bands of the 60's & 70's who were a treath to their hegemony. Which made stars like Ntesa, Kiambukuta, Ndombe, Kiese Diambu end up in TPOK Jazz
By the time Sam went to Afrisa, he was already wildly popular even before OK Jazz so I don't know if I'd count him. As for Pepe Ndombe, his success came from OK Jazz and Zing Zong projects and once Franco died, after he left Afrisa once again in the late 80s, he stayed with Simaro & Bana OK until he died so I don't think I'd count him either. I still can't name an artist who went directly from Afrisa to a solo career and was successful.
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I would like to know if that famous Tabu Ley interview when he criticize the 4th/5th gen artists for doing too much dance music is in YouTube
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@Matebu
Perhaps the recent trend of increasingly programmed music over live instrumentation is because it's cheaper to record and release. Half the battle of making music today is done by when you can program percussions, horn sections, and synths on the keyboard. Where back in the day, you had to factor in whether live horns would sync well with the guitars, keyboards, and drums. This means that music composition was the foundation of song creation, as opposed to improvising melodies on a keyboard or guitar partition then stretching them out into songs.
In order to conserve cost, reheasals were constant and music compositions of some of our favorite songs underwent many rewrites to get that sound just perfect enough to record. With a band set up of lead (sometimed mi-solo) and rhythm guitar, it required a dedicated team of studio engineers to properly record and sequence the music in respects to the bass player and drums.
This requires a lot of money, patience, and commitment which I don't think a lot of artist have nowadays in the social media era. It's all about quick output and even faster returns on investment, where as the past required time to create an album that could survive months on rotations because of the power of the music.
As far as lyrics go, maybe it's time for songwriters to reach into themselves and share songs about the things we all go through besides just sex...maybe fables of common life or songs about personal trials (big or small). Atalakus need to strengthen their craft on creating cries that get people to dance and admire their wordplay (incorperate different languages like kikongo and tshiluba).
Those are just my observations, but it seems we're all on the save wavelength.
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@Matebu
Perhaps the recent trend of increasingly programmed music over live instrumentation is because it's cheaper to record and release. Half the battle of making music today is done by when you can program percussions, horn sections, and synths on the keyboard. Where back in the day, you had to factor in whether live horns would sync well with the guitars, keyboards, and drums. This means that music composition was the foundation of song creation, as opposed to improvising melodies on a keyboard or guitar partition then stretching them out into songs.
In order to conserve cost, reheasals were constant and music compositions of some of our favorite songs underwent many rewrites to get that sound just perfect enough to record. With a band set up of lead (sometimed mi-solo) and rhythm guitar, it required a dedicated team of studio engineers to properly record and sequence the music in respects to the bass player and drums.
This requires a lot of money, patience, and commitment which I don't think a lot of artist have nowadays in the social media era. It's all about quick output and even faster returns on investment, where as the past required time to create an album that could survive months on rotations because of the power of the music.
As far as lyrics go, maybe it's time for songwriters to reach into themselves and share songs about the things we all go through besides just sex...maybe fables of common life or songs about personal trials (big or small). Atalakus need to strengthen their craft on creating cries that get people to dance and admire their wordplay (incorperate different languages like kikongo and tshiluba).
Those are just my observations, but it seems we're all on the save wavelength.
Very good explanation, all this summarizes what Congolese music needs to regain the power it had before
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@Matebu
Perhaps the recent trend of increasingly programmed music over live instrumentation is because it's cheaper to record and release. Half the battle of making music today is done by when you can program percussions, horn sections, and synths on the keyboard. Where back in the day, you had to factor in whether live horns would sync well with the guitars, keyboards, and drums. This means that music composition was the foundation of song creation, as opposed to improvising melodies on a keyboard or guitar partition then stretching them out into songs.
In order to conserve cost, reheasals were constant and music compositions of some of our favorite songs underwent many rewrites to get that sound just perfect enough to record. With a band set up of lead (sometimed mi-solo) and rhythm guitar, it required a dedicated team of studio engineers to properly record and sequence the music in respects to the bass player and drums.
This requires a lot of money, patience, and commitment which I don't think a lot of artist have nowadays in the social media era. It's all about quick output and even faster returns on investment, where as the past required time to create an album that could survive months on rotations because of the power of the music.
As far as lyrics go, maybe it's time for songwriters to reach into themselves and share songs about the things we all go through besides just sex...maybe fables of common life or songs about personal trials (big or small). Atalakus need to strengthen their craft on creating cries that get people to dance and admire their wordplay (incorperate different languages like kikongo and tshiluba).
Those are just my observations, but it seems we're all on the save wavelength.
Very good explanation, all this summarizes what Congolese music needs to regain the power it had before
I second that motion. Great points, especially with all the hit songs worldwide that are being made with cheap productions
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@Matebu @Congolitude
Adding to the discussion, perhaps there should be a committed group of local sponsors (wealthly business folks and politicans who like music) to create a peformance venue that allows local musicians to recruit, rehearse, and perform on a local level and develop groups. With time, these groups will form their own style and create a buzz that will attract the more exclusive sponsorships which can start providing instruments, studio time, and maybe financial patronage to members!
Once the group has a solid line-up of musicans; local support, and an wealthy backer then they can travel to Europe to properly record their rehearsed songs and maybe secure an distribution deal that can yield the group a wider audience and bigger venues like Olympia and Bercy.
This time around, Congolese artist need to invest into learning and applying the business science of music publishing which allow artist credited as composers to specific songs to recieve mechanical royalties for their work!
Had there been an independant company assigned with tracking sales and leasing music of Congolese artist to third parties like movies and advertisements, they save some of the profit into a fund for artist that can mimic pension which becomes accessable after a certain period of time. This could solve a lot of the problems of long-term artist dying without a penny to their name, but it also protects songwriters credited with composing songs because it forces band leaders to practice fair payment practices for group albums!
Maybe they could create a financial insentive like yearly bonuses for bandleaders who abide strictly by the rules of fair-play and payment of artist.
My college discipline is business, specifically finance and accounting. I'm still in college, so I'm not an authority in the field but just wanted to share some ideas
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@Tata Nkiadi @Matebu
As far as mabangas go, only the highest financial sponsor to a group should be given a shoutout on the actual album! If an artist wants to give praise to mid-level sponsors, save it for concerts.
The albums primarly should exist to showcase well composed rhumbas, an anthemic generique, and sebene songs which incorperate both previous mentioned types of songs.
I'm more forgiving towards increased mabanga usage in the generique because those songs have long legs in term of promotions since they operate at parties and nightclubs, which are perfect places to advertise a business or praise a sponsor. However, the music AND lyrics should be primary factor in music production...mabangas are just the icing on top of the cake.
@mvulusi96
There should be a music station on TV or some kind of platform to properly promote new acts and form fan excitment about new albums, the older generations did it back and the day...with the access to tech they didn't have, this new generation should be able to figure out a way. The problem requires better logistics
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- The Bandal crowd (Wenge and its heirs) nearly destroyed our music.
- I hate these trends of having a lot french words in songs. The more lingala based a song is the more it's beautiful. Rhumba was built on congolese languages, especially lingala.
- Too much RnB orientated rumba songs.
- People care too much about westerners listening to our music. Our music will never become mainstream in the West. We should focus on Latim America...
- Kester was an idiot for popularizing that "taking our music out of the ghetto" mantra, and now I see a lot of people running with it. Our music was never in the ghetto. "Independence cha-cha" took the entire continent by storm.
- Seben is good but rhumba is superior and is the heart of the genre.
- Too much sex and vulgarity. The commission of censure needs to make a come back and send someone to jail for a long time.
- Our musician need to stop dressing like rappers and mimicking them. It's stupid and they look like fools. I blame Fally.
- Werra did not deserve his success. He's not a super talented artist. He owes his success partially to the political context of the late 90's/early 00's.
- Marie Paul deserved what happened to his career for helping Werra only for tribal reasons.
- Quartier Latin (1st version : 92-99) was equal to Wenge and at their peak they made better music than Wenge : Ultimatum was better than Pentagone.
- Wazekwa is not the genius he thinks he is.
- People give N'yoka Longo too much credit when it comes to Zaiko.
- The big Wenge split of 1997 was not important; the big tragedy happened when JB separated himself from Makaba and Bula. It was the real dream team.
- Adolphe made better solo rumba songs than Werra.
- Somono was the best atalaku of QL history.
- Bill Clinton is overrated and he does not have a legacy.
- Koffi started declining after Loi.
- Papa Wemba is to blame for turning a lot of men in the diaspora into fashion divas.
- Many young musicians do not have a proper knowledge of the genre.
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- The Bandal crowd (Wenge and its heirs) nearly destroyed our music.
- I hate these trends of having a lot french words in songs. The more lingala based a song is the more it's beautiful. Rhumba was built on congolese languages, especially lingala.
- Too much RnB orientated rumba songs.
- People care too much about westerners listening to our music. Our music will never become mainstream in the West. We should focus on Latim America...
- Kester was an idiot for popularizing that "taking our music out of the ghetto" mantra, and now I see a lot of people running with it. Our music was never in the ghetto. "Independence cha-cha" took the entire continent by storm.
- Seben is good but rhumba is superior and is the heart of the genre.
- Too much sex and vulgarity. The commission of censure needs to make a come back and send someone to jail for a long time.
- Our musician need to stop dressing like rappers and mimicking them. It's stupid and they look like fools. I blame Fally.
- Werra did not deserve his success. He's not a super talented artist. He owes his success partially to the political context of the late 90's/early 00's.
- Marie Paul deserved what happened to his career for helping Werra only for tribal reasons.
- Quartier Latin (1st version : 92-99) was equal to Wenge and at their peak they made better music than Wenge : Ultimatum was better than Pentagone.
- Wazekwa is not the genius he thinks he is.
- People give N'yoka Longo too much credit when it comes to Zaiko.
- The big Wenge split of 1997 was not important; the big tragedy happened when JB separated himself from Makaba and Bula. It was the real dream team.
- Adolphe made better solo rumba songs than Werra.
- Somono was the best atalaku of QL history.
- Bill Clinton is overrated and he does not have a legacy.
- Koffi started declining after Loi.
- Papa Wemba is to blame for turning a lot of men in the diaspora into fashion divas.
- Many young musicians do not have a proper knowledge of the genre.
Wow that's a lot of very unpopular statements...
seben is what got people outside of congo notice Congolese music and still to this day
Fallys not just to blame that rapper fashion has been around for years it's 4x4 and BCBG that started that trend way before people knew who fally was
Werra' only weakness is his voice other than that he's a good artist
Ultimatum better than pentagone... hmmmmm
The split was very important it impacted the whole genre
I wouldn't say somono was the best in QL history that's debatable
Bill has a huge legacy there's so many people who try and copy him he's not overrated
No way did koffi start declining after Loi that's when he started increasing its bek he started declining
Butttt I do agree about wenge almost destroying music to an extent
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- The Bandal crowd (Wenge and its heirs) nearly destroyed our music.
- I hate these trends of having a lot french words in songs. The more lingala based a song is the more it's beautiful. Rhumba was built on congolese languages, especially lingala.
- Too much RnB orientated rumba songs.
- People care too much about westerners listening to our music. Our music will never become mainstream in the West. We should focus on Latim America...
- Kester was an idiot for popularizing that "taking our music out of the ghetto" mantra, and now I see a lot of people running with it. Our music was never in the ghetto. "Independence cha-cha" took the entire continent by storm.
- Seben is good but rhumba is superior and is the heart of the genre.
- Too much sex and vulgarity. The commission of censure needs to make a come back and send someone to jail for a long time.
- Our musician need to stop dressing like rappers and mimicking them. It's stupid and they look like fools. I blame Fally.
- Werra did not deserve his success. He's not a super talented artist. He owes his success partially to the political context of the late 90's/early 00's.
- Marie Paul deserved what happened to his career for helping Werra only for tribal reasons.
- Quartier Latin (1st version : 92-99) was equal to Wenge and at their peak they made better music than Wenge : Ultimatum was better than Pentagone.
- Wazekwa is not the genius he thinks he is.
- People give N'yoka Longo too much credit when it comes to Zaiko.
- The big Wenge split of 1997 was not important; the big tragedy happened when JB separated himself from Makaba and Bula. It was the real dream team.
- Adolphe made better solo rumba songs than Werra.
- Somono was the best atalaku of QL history.
- Bill Clinton is overrated and he does not have a legacy.
- Koffi started declining after Loi.
- Papa Wemba is to blame for turning a lot of men in the diaspora into fashion divas.
- Many young musicians do not have a proper knowledge of the genre.
Wow that's a lot of very unpopular statements...
seben is what got people outside of congo notice Congolese music and still to this day
Fallys not just to blame that rapper fashion has been around for years it's 4x4 and BCBG that started that trend way before people knew who fally was
Werra' only weakness is his voice other than that he's a good artist
Ultimatum better than pentagone... hmmmmm
The split was very important it impacted the whole genre
I wouldn't say somono was the best in QL history that's debatable
Bill has a huge legacy there's so many people who try and copy him he's not overrated
No way did koffi start declining after Loi that's when he started increasing its bek he started declining
Butttt I do agree about wenge almost destroying music to an extent
No, it's Rumba which made Congolese music known in the world with Grand Kalle and his band African Jazz in the 50's and 60's who were filling stadiums. They were invited everywhere by presidents and countries who just became independent. Grand Kalle was even known in Cuba. They made a big tribute for him when he died in 1983. Then you got the generation Tabu Ley contributed alot in the Congolese music-scene adding drums, coming the concept of having female dancers, coming with those showman-concerts, performing at Olympia for 36 concerts (26 days in a row!!!). Rumba did already everything in Africa for DRC. Seben came later and replaced it with those soukous artists based in Paris (Diblo Dibala, Kanda Bongo Man, Aurlus Mabele, etc.) making it famous in Africa.
No Quartier Latin's 1st generation isn't equal to Wenge 4x4. Watch their concerts and compare it with those of Wenge 4x4. Quartier Latin couldn't even match Wenge EL Paris of 1996/97 (Marie Paul, Manda Chante & Depitsho). Or maybe you didn't witness that, which I then can understand your point of view.
Hahah no, after Loi you had the Droit de Veto, Effrakata, Force de Frappe who were bangers. Without forgetting his big bangers at Bercy (being the african artist to perform there by his own and fill it), Stade des Martyrs, getting gold records, winning kora's (the event of 2002 when he won 4 being the highlight), returning to Zenith in 2001 & 2003. Koffi's artistic declin started in the time of Danger de Mort when his musicians started to leave one by one and Fally dominating him with Droit Chemin. B.E.K. and Abacadabra were a huge succes with Koffi presenting Cindy. But you could feel a little bit that Koffi was on the end. His intelligence made him still stand (adopting the style of singing about sex, like the way he followed Wenge's style in the 90's and polemic). Abacadabra was a warning that he had to change his artistic view, but his love for Cindy made him blind. It was then to late when he released 13eme Apotre. He tried to correct his errors in Nyataquance, but it's so/so. Nevertheless people are dancing to his rumba Alidor and the generic Danse Ya Ba Boss.
No, Ultimatum isn't better than Pentagone. Pentagone has better songs (Coco Madimba, La Verite, Filandu, Daddet & No Comment Schengen). Btw you can't compare the two albums, because the concept is different. In Ultimatum you got Koffi and Quartier Latin, while Pentagone is only Wenge 4x4 with everybody doing is own thing. Koffi is singing lead in the most song or doing duets with his musicians. This album made alot of people mistake Quartier Latin albums for Koffi's solo albums, even if this explained more 1000 times that those albums aren't solo albums. That's also the difference with his ex'mentor/idol Wemba, who was since that start of Viva La Musica in 1977 letting his band dowing in own things. You had many LP's/Albums in the 80's credited on Wemba's name where you wouldn't hear Wemba singing. in Nouvelle Ecriture's album "Dans 'L" of 1998, he sung only one song on his own "Safari", sung the chorus of "Ba Yankee" did some mabanga's in the generic and "Ba Yankee" and let his band do his own things. But Koffi is very smart with creating Quartier Latin on his image and the musicians coming after him. I guess that he did that so that he nobody would easily succeed in his solo career or create a splinterband which could harm his solo career and also that someone could become a threat to his succes or become more popular than him at a moment in his own band with was sometime the case with Papa Wemba (Maray Maray, Lidjo Kwempa & Reddy Amisi).
Quartier Latin's best atalaku ever is Mbo Bola "aka Mboshi Lipassa".
Yes Nyoka Longo is gets to much credited. He was in 1970 the first star of the band, but Gina Efonge joining in 1971 changed things.
Back in 1971 until 1974 he was on the background with Les Quatro "Ajumagi" (Evoloko Jocker, Gina Efonge, Jules Presley "Wemba" and Mavuela Somo) along with Pepe Felly Manuaki being the mainstars. That was the highlight of Zaiko. But people forgot it quickly, since that those images of that era dissparead. Gina Efonge was then the main star (in 1973 he lost his head and was replaced by Bozi Boziana) and then Evoloko Jocker. People weren't paying attention to Wemba who, but Wemba succeeding in his solo carreer made people wanting to change the history and acting like he was the main star of Zaiko in that era, which isn't true. Wemba's succes started in 1975 in Isifi Lokole, which was a spliterband of Zaiko created by Evoloko who was joined by Bozi Boziana, Mavuela and Wemba afer being suspended by Zaiko. His succes came when he released the song Amazone, who was dedicated to his wife. His succes created tensions in Isifi, because it made Evoloko angry Wemba had than more succes with him. Wemba's staff said to him to he had to start his own band but he wasn't sure about himself so he manipulated Mavuela and Bozi with some false stories. Than they followed him and created Yoka Lokole, leaving Evoloko alone. But it flopped in the 3 first months with Isifi of Evoloko and Zaiko beating them very hard. Then Mbuta Mashakado of Zaiko (he was imitating James Brown) joined Yoka Lokole, after leadership-wars with Nyoka Longo who was jealous of him. The succes started when Mavuela released Bana Kin (the song of the year and attack against people who weren't coming from Kinshasa) and Maloba Ya Koko. Mavuela Somo (who was nothing in Zaiko and Isifi) became then the main star along with Mbuta Mashakado. Then leadership-wars started and Wemba was forced out of the band. He wanted then to return to Zaiko and was excepting a visit from them, but nobody came. His staff tried to convice him to start his own band, but he wasn't sure of himself. His staff started to recruit musicians, but Wemba didn't care.He started then to rehease with Evoloko and his band Isifi Melodia with Evoloko starting to humilate him which didn't please Wemba's staff and they forced him to go at home. With then finally agreeing start his own band with Viva La Musica being created in december 1976 and giving his first concert on 26th february 1977 at bar Type K.
Back from 1971 until 1974 Zaiko had image of thugs and people who smocked alot of weed with Evoloko and Gina. But Zaiko's image changed in 1975 after the departure of Les Quatro. With Nyoka Longo, Bimi Ombale, Lengi Lenga and Likinga Redo recreating a new image of a band of intellectuals. With Nyoka Longo being the main-star since 1975 made until this day made him getting all the credits. While we had alot of people who contributed to the succes of Zaiko.
Wenge EL Paris had still succes in 1999 and 2000, but yes it was not more like before November 1998 when Titanic and Force d'Intervention Rapide came out. People say that it Marie Paul went down because he helped Werrason, but if you well it was more his own fault. He forced Manda Chante out of the band, while it was the moment to fight the Maison Mere vs BCBG virus and form a block. But despite that he had still those crazy crowd concerts with him winning the fara-fara against Werrason after Solola Bien. Things went wrong when he brought Wenge EL Paris back to Europe. In Europe his concerts had low attendence and then you got also the war of Marie Paul against journalist Zacharie Bababaswe. And the big blunder he made during a interview they asked him "ce quoi ton fruit prefere" with him saying "les beignets" and in an other question they asked him what job his wife does with him replying "homme d'affaire", while it is "femme d'affaires". Marie Paul made many blunders in interviews, but this time everybody payed attention to it with fans of other bands mocking him and many fans turing him the back, because of shame. His album K.O. Debout "Carte Jaune" very hard with him accussing Werrason and his staff doing witchcraft on that album and corrupt the excecutive producer Claude Mussay. Marie Paul made a strong comeback with the album Eboulement and planned to return to Kinshasa. The album was in the beginning well received but went quickly down in the music-charts, since the cd's still didn't arrive in the two Congo's and also because you need to be present in Congo to promote albums. Then things turned bad. His bandsmembers started to disrespect him and starting to leave one by one. With Marie Paul started lose his head and preaching people in the streets with the bible. When Zacharie Bababaswe heard that he decided to bring Marie Paul back to Kinshasa and re-starting Wenge EL Paris with Alain Mwepu and his brother Liverpool who still reheasering in his 4 years absence. But the succes wasn't there anymore with Marie Paul not being able to walk with big crowds behind him, like in years of 1992-2000. 2 years ago rumors appeard that him losing his succes didn't have to do with Werrason, but it was because of his atalaku Doukoure (who was doing alot of nasty work for him sacrifing alot of people, throwing nkisi at places where they had to perform, save some nkisi of the band at home). Rumors said that he wasn't happy the way Marie Paul treating him and wanting to earn more with Marie Paul punishing him by leaving him behind in Kinshasa which made him angry and throwing alot of nkisi away. This all backfired at him with him losing his head. He made an interview in Luanda where made some revelations.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nO4_68tEWy8
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What makes this thread great is getting to hear opinions of others that aren't necessarily based on historical popular opinion.... most of us know that already and still may not agree. So I appreciate @Paysan Congolais for his alternative views
- The Bandal crowd (Wenge and its heirs) nearly destroyed our music.
A lot can be sourced to them, so good point.
- Kester was an idiot for popularizing that "taking our music out of the ghetto" mantra, and now I see a lot of people running with it. Our music was never in the ghetto. "Independence cha-cha" took the entire continent by storm.
Idiot is a strong word, but he did make a point of making local dances popular in the late 90's... then all the other bands followed them since everyone wanted a big local fanbase.
- Seben is good but rhumba is superior and is the heart of the genre.
Mix of both for me.
- Our musician need to stop dressing like rappers and mimicking them. It's stupid and they look like fools. I blame Fally.
Wenge BCBG was the group that introduced hip hop clothing and made it popular among artist in general, from there things went south. Things like tight clothes, sagging pants, and bucket hats, we can point to Fally.
It's too late to go back now, I'm afraid. Everyone dresses western now.
- Werra did not deserve his success. He's not a super talented artist. He owes his success partially to the political context of the late 90's/early 00's.
Without the first WMM team (Bill, Celeo, Ferre, Serge, Japonais, Flamme, Mimche, etc) he would have been nothing at all, in my opinion.
- Wazekwa is not the genius he thinks he is.
Can you elaborate on why you think Wazekwa is not a genius for the genre. For me his whole career mantra has been based on sagesse, and I've never been lead to think otherwise. His new book has been extremely well-recieved among educated folk.
- People give N'yoka Longo too much credit when it comes to Zaiko.
Most casual listeners think he created Zaiko and made it great, which angers me. He was too power obsessed, so either the orginals died early or he pushed them out.
- The big Wenge split of 1997 was not important; the big tragedy happened when JB separated himself from Makaba and Bula. It was the real dream team.
The split was inevitable, but JB burned bridges with Makaba and Bula too prematurely.
- Adolphe made better solo rumba songs than Werra.
Werra has never fully composed a rhumba himself, so no argument from me.
- Bill Clinton is overrated and he does not have a legacy.
My first issue with Bill is why the hell he named himself Bill Clinton.... If I type "Bill Clinton" on YT, forsure i will not see his videos.
- Papa Wemba is to blame for turning a lot of men in the diaspora into fashion divas.
I definitely agree about Wemba spoiling the minds of his fans. Those sapeur idiots....yes idiots, because they spend they their livelihood (if they even work) on fashion are lost souls.
The funny think is most don't even look remotely good in those European haute couture.
- Many young musicians do not have a proper knowledge of the genre.
So true. I was watching an interview of Pepe Felly (father of modern sebene and guitar in general). He was explaining the way he developed while riding on a training and paying attention to the consistency of train tracks.
He also said that the none of the younger guitarists are innovating, or even good for that matter because they do not know how and why it was created in the first place.
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Wow that's a lot of very unpopular statements...
seben is what got people outside of congo notice Congolese music and still to this day
Fallys not just to blame that rapper fashion has been around for years it's 4x4 and BCBG that started that trend way before people knew who fally was
Werra' only weakness is his voice other than that he's a good artist
Ultimatum better than pentagone... hmmmmm
The split was very important it impacted the whole genre
I wouldn't say somono was the best in QL history that's debatable
Bill has a huge legacy there's so many people who try and copy him he's not overrated
No way did koffi start declining after Loi that's when he started increasing its bek he started declining
Butttt I do agree about wenge almost destroying music to an extent
Seben is not what got people outside of Congo to love our music. Congolese music was played all over Africa since the 60's. Mbilia Bel is one of the most famous african musician in Latin America, especially Colombia, she never played seben. Franco was famous all over Africa, even the world. He wasn't a seben based musician.
Musically, Koffi started declining at that moment. It does not mean everything he did after was bad, but musically, he reached his peak in the mid-90's.
Bill does not have a "cri" people will remember him for.
You're right for the impact of the split on the genre. I was taking about a more musical aspect. Titanic was a pure Wenge album. You did not need Werra and Adolphe to have a Wenge album. Once Makaba and Bula left, the "Wenge sound" disappeared.
I don't see a single song on Pentagone better than "Papa na Roissy".
Werra weakness is not only his voice, it's also his singing ability overall. He can't sing. We're talking about a guy who couldn't sing a whole song by himself after years and years of musical career.
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Wow that's a lot of very unpopular statements...
seben is what got people outside of congo notice Congolese music and still to this day
Fallys not just to blame that rapper fashion has been around for years it's 4x4 and BCBG that started that trend way before people knew who fally was
Werra' only weakness is his voice other than that he's a good artist
Ultimatum better than pentagone... hmmmmm
The split was very important it impacted the whole genre
I wouldn't say somono was the best in QL history that's debatable
Bill has a huge legacy there's so many people who try and copy him he's not overrated
No way did koffi start declining after Loi that's when he started increasing its bek he started declining
Butttt I do agree about wenge almost destroying music to an extent
No, it's Rumba which made Congolese music known in the world with Grand Kalle and his band African Jazz in the 50's and 60's who were filling stadiums. They were invited everywhere by presidents and countries who just became independent. Grand Kalle was even known in Cuba. They made a big tribute for him when he died in 1983. Then you got the generation Tabu Ley contributed alot in the Congolese music-scene adding drums, coming the concept of having female dancers, coming with those showman-concerts, performing at Olympia for 36 concerts (26 days in a row!!!). Rumba did already everything in Africa for DRC. Seben came later and replaced it with those soukous artists based in Paris (Diblo Dibala, Kanda Bongo Man, Aurlus Mabele, etc.) making it famous in Africa.
No Quartier Latin's 1st generation isn't equal to Wenge 4x4. Watch their concerts and compare it with those of Wenge 4x4. Quartier Latin couldn't even match Wenge EL Paris of 1996/97 (Marie Paul, Manda Chante & Depitsho). Or maybe you didn't witness that, which I then can understand your point of view.
Hahah no, after Loi you had the Droit de Veto, Effrakata, Force de Frappe who were bangers. Without forgetting his big bangers at Bercy (being the african artist to perform there by his own and fill it), Stade des Martyrs, getting gold records, winning kora's (the event of 2002 when he won 4 being the highlight), returning to Zenith in 2001 & 2003. Koffi's artistic declin started in the time of Danger de Mort when his musicians started to leave one by one and Fally dominating him with Droit Chemin. B.E.K. and Abacadabra were a huge succes with Koffi presenting Cindy. But you could feel a little bit that Koffi was on the end. His intelligence made him still stand (adopting the style of singing about sex, like the way he followed Wenge's style in the 90's and polemic). Abacadabra was a warning that he had to change his artistic view, but his love for Cindy made him blind. It was then to late when he released 13eme Apotre. He tried to correct his errors in Nyataquance, but it's so/so. Nevertheless people are dancing to his rumba Alidor and the generic Danse Ya Ba Boss.
No, Ultimatum isn't better than Pentagone. Pentagone has better songs (Coco Madimba, La Verite, Filandu, Daddet & No Comment Schengen). Btw you can't compare the two albums, because the concept is different. In Ultimatum you got Koffi and Quartier Latin, while Pentagone is only Wenge 4x4 with everybody doing is own thing. Koffi is singing lead in the most song or doing duets with his musicians. This album made alot of people mistake Quartier Latin albums for Koffi's solo albums, even if this explained more 1000 times that those albums aren't solo albums. That's also the difference with his ex'mentor/idol Wemba, who was since that start of Viva La Musica in 1977 letting his band dowing in own things. You had many LP's/Albums in the 80's credited on Wemba's name where you wouldn't hear Wemba singing. in Nouvelle Ecriture's album "Dans 'L" of 1998, he sung only one song on his own "Safari", sung the chorus of "Ba Yankee" did some mabanga's in the generic and "Ba Yankee" and let his band do his own things. But Koffi is very smart with creating Quartier Latin on his image and the musicians coming after him. I guess that he did that so that he nobody would easily succeed in his solo career or create a splinterband which could harm his solo career and also that someone could become a threat to his succes or become more popular than him at a moment in his own band with was sometime the case with Papa Wemba (Maray Maray, Lidjo Kwempa & Reddy Amisi).
Quartier Latin's best atalaku ever is Mbo Bola "aka Mboshi Lipassa".
Yes Nyoka Longo is gets to much credited. He was in 1970 the first star of the band, but Gina Efonge joining in 1971 changed things.
Back in 1971 until 1974 he was on the background with Les Quatro "Ajumagi" (Evoloko Jocker, Gina Efonge, Jules Presley "Wemba" and Mavuela Somo) along with Pepe Felly Manuaki being the mainstars. That was the highlight of Zaiko. But people forgot it quickly, since that those images of that era dissparead. Gina Efonge was then the main star (in 1973 he lost his head and was replaced by Bozi Boziana) and then Evoloko Jocker. People weren't paying attention to Wemba who, but Wemba succeeding in his solo carreer made people wanting to change the history and acting like he was the main star of Zaiko in that era, which isn't true. Wemba's succes started in 1975 in Isifi Lokole, which was a spliterband of Zaiko created by Evoloko who was joined by Bozi Boziana, Mavuela and Wemba afer being suspended by Zaiko. His succes came when he released the song Amazone, who was dedicated to his wife. His succes created tensions in Isifi, because it made Evoloko angry Wemba had than more succes with him. Wemba's staff said to him to he had to start his own band but he wasn't sure about himself so he manipulated Mavuela and Bozi with some false stories. Than they followed him and created Yoka Lokole, leaving Evoloko alone. But it flopped in the 3 first months with Isifi of Evoloko and Zaiko beating them very hard. Then Mbuta Mashakado of Zaiko (he was imitating James Brown) joined Yoka Lokole, after leadership-wars with Nyoka Longo who was jealous of him. The succes started when Mavuela released Bana Kin (the song of the year and attack against people who weren't coming from Kinshasa) and Maloba Ya Koko. Mavuela Somo (who was nothing in Zaiko and Isifi) became then the main star along with Mbuta Mashakado. Then leadership-wars started and Wemba was forced out of the band. He wanted then to return to Zaiko and was excepting a visit from them, but nobody came. His staff tried to convice him to start his own band, but he wasn't sure of himself. His staff started to recruit musicians, but Wemba didn't care.He started then to rehease with Evoloko and his band Isifi Melodia with Evoloko starting to humilate him which didn't please Wemba's staff and they forced him to go at home. With then finally agreeing start his own band with Viva La Musica being created in december 1976 and giving his first concert on 26th february 1977 at bar Type K.
Back from 1971 until 1974 Zaiko had image of thugs and people who smocked alot of weed with Evoloko and Gina. But Zaiko's image changed in 1975 after the departure of Les Quatro. With Nyoka Longo, Bimi Ombale, Lengi Lenga and Likinga Redo recreating a new image of a band of intellectuals. With Nyoka Longo being the main-star since 1975 made until this day made him getting all the credits. While we had alot of people who contributed to the succes of Zaiko.
Wenge EL Paris had still succes in 1999 and 2000, but yes it was not more like before November 1998 when Titanic and Force d'Intervention Rapide came out. People say that it Marie Paul went down because he helped Werrason, but if you well it was more his own fault. He forced Manda Chante out of the band, while it was the moment to fight the Maison Mere vs BCBG virus and form a block. But despite that he had still those crazy crowd concerts with him winning the fara-fara against Werrason after Solola Bien. Things went wrong when he brought Wenge EL Paris back to Europe. In Europe his concerts had low attendence and then you got also the war of Marie Paul against journalist Zacharie Bababaswe. And the big blunder he made during a interview they asked him "ce quoi ton fruit prefere" with him saying "les beignets" and in an other question they asked him what job his wife does with him replying "homme d'affaire", while it is "femme d'affaires". Marie Paul made many blunders in interviews, but this time everybody payed attention to it with fans of other bands mocking him and many fans turing him the back, because of shame. His album K.O. Debout "Carte Jaune" very hard with him accussing Werrason and his staff doing witchcraft on that album and corrupt the excecutive producer Claude Mussay. Marie Paul made a strong comeback with the album Eboulement and planned to return to Kinshasa. The album was in the beginning well received but went quickly down in the music-charts, since the cd's still didn't arrive in the two Congo's and also because you need to be present in Congo to promote albums. Then things turned bad. His bandsmembers started to disrespect him and starting to leave one by one. With Marie Paul started lose his head and preaching people in the streets with the bible. When Zacharie Bababaswe heard that he decided to bring Marie Paul back to Kinshasa and re-starting Wenge EL Paris with Alain Mwepu and his brother Liverpool who still reheasering in his 4 years absence. But the succes wasn't there anymore with Marie Paul not being able to walk with big crowds behind him, like in years of 1992-2000. 2 years ago rumors appeard that him losing his succes didn't have to do with Werrason, but it was because of his atalaku Doukoure (who was doing alot of nasty work for him sacrifing alot of people, throwing nkisi at places where they had to perform, save some nkisi of the band at home). Rumors said that he wasn't happy the way Marie Paul treating him and wanting to earn more with Marie Paul punishing him by leaving him behind in Kinshasa which made him angry and throwing alot of nkisi away. This all backfired at him with him losing his head. He made an interview in Luanda where made some revelations.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nO4_68tEWy8
When I say decline, I was talking about the musical aspect, not success. I should've been more precise.
Papa na Roissy is a better song that the songs you've listed from Pentagone.
If you compare the first Koffi Olympia (Mboshi is the only atalaku) and the V12 Abidjan concert (Somono is the only atalaku), you'll see why Somono is better.
Plus, Mboshi never made a song as good as Mbirime. I don't hate Mboshi but he always appeared as a bootleg Caludgi.
You're right about Marie Paul. I like the guy but he played himself. Instead of letting Werra die on the side road and becoming the only adversary for JB he went and helped Werra. It was a dumb move. One of the reasons Manda left (he said it himself) is because Manda wasn't agreeing with the help Marie Paul was giving Werra and Maison Mère.
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@ Matebu
Waekwa gave an interview the other day and was calling himself a thinker. I was like "C'mon". You're not a thinker because you wrote a book. I can write a book too.
The guy is not a genius. He had some good texts in the 90's, but that's it. When it comes to songwriting he's not even touching Lutumba's wiseness or Max Mongali's poetry. I'll put him in the same category with Koffi and Reddy. That's it.
Having a diploma from a french university does not turn you into a Plato or Socrates.
Back in the 70, when we had a solid education system with a lot of true intellectuals, nobody would've cared for someone like Wazekwa.
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Wow that's a lot of very unpopular statements...
seben is what got people outside of congo notice Congolese music and still to this day
Fallys not just to blame that rapper fashion has been around for years it's 4x4 and BCBG that started that trend way before people knew who fally was
Werra' only weakness is his voice other than that he's a good artist
Ultimatum better than pentagone... hmmmmm
The split was very important it impacted the whole genre
I wouldn't say somono was the best in QL history that's debatable
Bill has a huge legacy there's so many people who try and copy him he's not overrated
No way did koffi start declining after Loi that's when he started increasing its bek he started declining
Butttt I do agree about wenge almost destroying music to an extent
No, it's Rumba which made Congolese music known in the world with Grand Kalle and his band African Jazz in the 50's and 60's who were filling stadiums. They were invited everywhere by presidents and countries who just became independent. Grand Kalle was even known in Cuba. They made a big tribute for him when he died in 1983. Then you got the generation Tabu Ley contributed alot in the Congolese music-scene adding drums, coming the concept of having female dancers, coming with those showman-concerts, performing at Olympia for 36 concerts (26 days in a row!!!). Rumba did already everything in Africa for DRC. Seben came later and replaced it with those soukous artists based in Paris (Diblo Dibala, Kanda Bongo Man, Aurlus Mabele, etc.) making it famous in Africa.
No Quartier Latin's 1st generation isn't equal to Wenge 4x4. Watch their concerts and compare it with those of Wenge 4x4. Quartier Latin couldn't even match Wenge EL Paris of 1996/97 (Marie Paul, Manda Chante & Depitsho). Or maybe you didn't witness that, which I then can understand your point of view.
Hahah no, after Loi you had the Droit de Veto, Effrakata, Force de Frappe who were bangers. Without forgetting his big bangers at Bercy (being the african artist to perform there by his own and fill it), Stade des Martyrs, getting gold records, winning kora's (the event of 2002 when he won 4 being the highlight), returning to Zenith in 2001 & 2003. Koffi's artistic declin started in the time of Danger de Mort when his musicians started to leave one by one and Fally dominating him with Droit Chemin. B.E.K. and Abacadabra were a huge succes with Koffi presenting Cindy. But you could feel a little bit that Koffi was on the end. His intelligence made him still stand (adopting the style of singing about sex, like the way he followed Wenge's style in the 90's and polemic). Abacadabra was a warning that he had to change his artistic view, but his love for Cindy made him blind. It was then to late when he released 13eme Apotre. He tried to correct his errors in Nyataquance, but it's so/so. Nevertheless people are dancing to his rumba Alidor and the generic Danse Ya Ba Boss.
No, Ultimatum isn't better than Pentagone. Pentagone has better songs (Coco Madimba, La Verite, Filandu, Daddet & No Comment Schengen). Btw you can't compare the two albums, because the concept is different. In Ultimatum you got Koffi and Quartier Latin, while Pentagone is only Wenge 4x4 with everybody doing is own thing. Koffi is singing lead in the most song or doing duets with his musicians. This album made alot of people mistake Quartier Latin albums for Koffi's solo albums, even if this explained more 1000 times that those albums aren't solo albums. That's also the difference with his ex'mentor/idol Wemba, who was since that start of Viva La Musica in 1977 letting his band dowing in own things. You had many LP's/Albums in the 80's credited on Wemba's name where you wouldn't hear Wemba singing. in Nouvelle Ecriture's album "Dans 'L" of 1998, he sung only one song on his own "Safari", sung the chorus of "Ba Yankee" did some mabanga's in the generic and "Ba Yankee" and let his band do his own things. But Koffi is very smart with creating Quartier Latin on his image and the musicians coming after him. I guess that he did that so that he nobody would easily succeed in his solo career or create a splinterband which could harm his solo career and also that someone could become a threat to his succes or become more popular than him at a moment in his own band with was sometime the case with Papa Wemba (Maray Maray, Lidjo Kwempa & Reddy Amisi).
Quartier Latin's best atalaku ever is Mbo Bola "aka Mboshi Lipassa".
Yes Nyoka Longo is gets to much credited. He was in 1970 the first star of the band, but Gina Efonge joining in 1971 changed things.
Back in 1971 until 1974 he was on the background with Les Quatro "Ajumagi" (Evoloko Jocker, Gina Efonge, Jules Presley "Wemba" and Mavuela Somo) along with Pepe Felly Manuaki being the mainstars. That was the highlight of Zaiko. But people forgot it quickly, since that those images of that era dissparead. Gina Efonge was then the main star (in 1973 he lost his head and was replaced by Bozi Boziana) and then Evoloko Jocker. People weren't paying attention to Wemba who, but Wemba succeeding in his solo carreer made people wanting to change the history and acting like he was the main star of Zaiko in that era, which isn't true. Wemba's succes started in 1975 in Isifi Lokole, which was a spliterband of Zaiko created by Evoloko who was joined by Bozi Boziana, Mavuela and Wemba afer being suspended by Zaiko. His succes came when he released the song Amazone, who was dedicated to his wife. His succes created tensions in Isifi, because it made Evoloko angry Wemba had than more succes with him. Wemba's staff said to him to he had to start his own band but he wasn't sure about himself so he manipulated Mavuela and Bozi with some false stories. Than they followed him and created Yoka Lokole, leaving Evoloko alone. But it flopped in the 3 first months with Isifi of Evoloko and Zaiko beating them very hard. Then Mbuta Mashakado of Zaiko (he was imitating James Brown) joined Yoka Lokole, after leadership-wars with Nyoka Longo who was jealous of him. The succes started when Mavuela released Bana Kin (the song of the year and attack against people who weren't coming from Kinshasa) and Maloba Ya Koko. Mavuela Somo (who was nothing in Zaiko and Isifi) became then the main star along with Mbuta Mashakado. Then leadership-wars started and Wemba was forced out of the band. He wanted then to return to Zaiko and was excepting a visit from them, but nobody came. His staff tried to convice him to start his own band, but he wasn't sure of himself. His staff started to recruit musicians, but Wemba didn't care.He started then to rehease with Evoloko and his band Isifi Melodia with Evoloko starting to humilate him which didn't please Wemba's staff and they forced him to go at home. With then finally agreeing start his own band with Viva La Musica being created in december 1976 and giving his first concert on 26th february 1977 at bar Type K.
Back from 1971 until 1974 Zaiko had image of thugs and people who smocked alot of weed with Evoloko and Gina. But Zaiko's image changed in 1975 after the departure of Les Quatro. With Nyoka Longo, Bimi Ombale, Lengi Lenga and Likinga Redo recreating a new image of a band of intellectuals. With Nyoka Longo being the main-star since 1975 made until this day made him getting all the credits. While we had alot of people who contributed to the succes of Zaiko.
Wenge EL Paris had still succes in 1999 and 2000, but yes it was not more like before November 1998 when Titanic and Force d'Intervention Rapide came out. People say that it Marie Paul went down because he helped Werrason, but if you well it was more his own fault. He forced Manda Chante out of the band, while it was the moment to fight the Maison Mere vs BCBG virus and form a block. But despite that he had still those crazy crowd concerts with him winning the fara-fara against Werrason after Solola Bien. Things went wrong when he brought Wenge EL Paris back to Europe. In Europe his concerts had low attendence and then you got also the war of Marie Paul against journalist Zacharie Bababaswe. And the big blunder he made during a interview they asked him "ce quoi ton fruit prefere" with him saying "les beignets" and in an other question they asked him what job his wife does with him replying "homme d'affaire", while it is "femme d'affaires". Marie Paul made many blunders in interviews, but this time everybody payed attention to it with fans of other bands mocking him and many fans turing him the back, because of shame. His album K.O. Debout "Carte Jaune" very hard with him accussing Werrason and his staff doing witchcraft on that album and corrupt the excecutive producer Claude Mussay. Marie Paul made a strong comeback with the album Eboulement and planned to return to Kinshasa. The album was in the beginning well received but went quickly down in the music-charts, since the cd's still didn't arrive in the two Congo's and also because you need to be present in Congo to promote albums. Then things turned bad. His bandsmembers started to disrespect him and starting to leave one by one. With Marie Paul started lose his head and preaching people in the streets with the bible. When Zacharie Bababaswe heard that he decided to bring Marie Paul back to Kinshasa and re-starting Wenge EL Paris with Alain Mwepu and his brother Liverpool who still reheasering in his 4 years absence. But the succes wasn't there anymore with Marie Paul not being able to walk with big crowds behind him, like in years of 1992-2000. 2 years ago rumors appeard that him losing his succes didn't have to do with Werrason, but it was because of his atalaku Doukoure (who was doing alot of nasty work for him sacrifing alot of people, throwing nkisi at places where they had to perform, save some nkisi of the band at home). Rumors said that he wasn't happy the way Marie Paul treating him and wanting to earn more with Marie Paul punishing him by leaving him behind in Kinshasa which made him angry and throwing alot of nkisi away. This all backfired at him with him losing his head. He made an interview in Luanda where made some revelations.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nO4_68tEWy8
When I say decline, I was talking about the musical aspect, not success. I should've been more precise.
Papa na Roissy is a better song that the songs you've listed from Pentagone.
If you compare the first Koffi Olympia (Mboshi is the only atalaku) and the V12 Abidjan concert (Somono is the only atalaku), you'll see why Somono is better.
Plus, Mboshi never made a song as good as Mbirime. I don't hate Mboshi but he always appeared as a bootleg Caludgi.
You're right about Marie Paul. I like the guy but he played himself. Instead of letting Werra die on the side road and becoming the only adversary for JB he went and helped Werra. It was a dumb move. One of the reasons Manda left (he said it himself) is because Manda wasn't agreeing with the help Marie Paul was giving Werra and Maison Mère.
I watched that concert of Koffi in Abidjan, but Somono didn't really impress me. When I saw that video for the first time was really dissapointed, I was waiting then for Beevans. I was seeing Somono as a faux animateur until a saw the video of Koffi's 40th birthday. He was lucky to travel with Quartier Latin in Europe in 1997, because he hadn't a new crie. That toko bina selele of Boketshu 1er saved him. When Academia started without Mboshi people said that Somono was finished, because he wasn't really able to let people move you will see that he voice was many time messed up. His duo's with Mboshi weren't the same anymore when he rejoined Quartier Latin after Olympia.
Mbirime isn't a song. It is a generic and it wasn't even composed by Somono himself. Baron Manoka was the original composer of that song, but they co-credited it to Somono, since that he was atalaku. A big part of Mbirime is a old Kikongo-folklore song. Edo Nganga from Brazzaville remixed a little in OK Jazz naming it Ba O.K. Batele Wo. Somono isn't really reactive he was always repeating the same cries of Station Japana in Quartier Latin & Academia.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-cd3oRqMqo
If we are talking about songs. Than I would say that Somono never made a good song like Prototype, which credited to Mboshi Lipassa. Name me a song of Somono that everybody can remember.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLSzZte9_hw
If are talking your talking about musical aspect. Then it's from V12. Because after that Koffi didn't came with something new. Alot of rumba's he did after V12 were copies of Fouta Djallon. If we don't look to the chorus of V12we can then even say that it's Noblesse Oblige. Because Fouta Djallon has the same style of Classe Tendresse.
Manda Chante didn't leave by himself. He was forced out by Marie Paul who wanted to be the only leader of Wenge EL Paris and not wanted to share the money anymore with him. With him saying to the musicians that they don't must rehease anymore with him and that had to chose for him or Manda Chante with everybody chosing for Marie Paul, because they feared Marie Paul and didn't believe in Manda succeeding in a solo carreer. Before that they performed two times without him with nobody saying to him that they had a concert. Yes I saw him saying it sometimes that didn't agree with Marie Paul helping Werrason, but it wasn't of the main reasons that he left. That thing of Marie Paul helping Werrason is just a little problem. Before that many things happened between him and Marie Paul. If he would just leave for that, he would left Wenge EL Paris already in 1995.
That's not true Bill Clinton has 2 main crie, who people will remember him for it. He made the Mbuji-Mayi animation which alot of bands adopted, Delta Force of Pepe Kalle, Big Stars of Defao, Victoria Eleison of King Kester Emeneya and many others. After that he made his most famous crie "Tatu Kansebu", which almost everybody copied and from that atalaku's started animating in Tshiluba. Because before that animation was always done in Lingala or Kikongo and sometimes but very rare in Ki-humbu/Ki-teke (the original languague of Kinshasa).
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Evoloko was totally overrated singer in the Zaiko age. He was never that special to begin with. Unfortunately people such as my idols Franco and Pepe Kalle thought he was "special". This man was a wreck in making. His voice is so annoying. He is not the worst singer but he is not the best at all. For some reason my parents love his songs so much that they always want me to play them. I don't know what they see special about him. SMH.
Koffi Olomide was better with Josky than with everyone else. Josky and Koffi Olomide had a special musical connection that Koffi did not have with anyone else. Josky gave Koffi the chance to express himself in many ways.
Franco was better with Vicky Longomba than with Madilu System or Youlou Mabiala. Franco and Vicky understood each other well musically better than they did with others. Vicky was a classical tenor singer while Franco was a wild baritone singer and they mashed to a accurate harmony.
Nyboma belonged to Pepe Kalle and not Madilu. Pepe Kalle made Nyboma a better singer than anyone else. Including Koffi Olomide, Wuta Mayi, Madilu, and others.
Papa Wemba should have done a duet song with Ntesa Dalienst. Ntesa and Papa Wemba would have been a better duo
Franco should have gotten Tino Minkwa into OKJ. He would have been a great addition into OKJ.
Fally Ipupa and Heritier need to do a duet together
Madilu, Papa Wemba and Tabu Ley would have been a great trio.
Koffi Olomide was very jealous of the Wenge Musica style of music.
and I got more but that is what I got so far.
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I watched that concert of Koffi in Abidjan, but Somono didn't really impress me. When I saw that video for the first time was really dissapointed, I was waiting then for Beevans. I was seeing Somono as a faux animateur until a saw the video of Koffi's 40th birthday. He was lucky to travel with Quartier Latin in Europe in 1997, because he hadn't a new crie. That toko bina selele of Boketshu 1er saved him. When Academia started without Mboshi people said that Somono was finished, because he wasn't really able to let people move you will see that he voice was many time messed up. His duo's with Mboshi weren't the same anymore when he rejoined Quartier Latin after Olympia.
Mbirime isn't a song. It is a generic and it wasn't even composed by Somono himself. Baron Manoka was the original composer of that song, but they co-credited it to Somono, since that he was atalaku. A big part of Mbirime is a old Kikongo-folklore song. Edo Nganga from Brazzaville remixed a little in OK Jazz naming it Ba O.K. Batele Wo. Somono isn't really reactive he was always repeating the same cries of Station Japana in Quartier Latin & Academia.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-cd3oRqMqo
If we are talking about songs. Than I would say that Somono never made a good song like Prototype, which credited to Mboshi Lipassa. Name me a song of Somono that everybody can remember.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLSzZte9_hw
If are talking your talking about musical aspect. Then it's from V12. Because after that Koffi didn't came with something new. Alot of rumba's he did after V12 were copies of Fouta Djallon. If we don't look to the chorus of V12we can then even say that it's Noblesse Oblige. Because Fouta Djallon has the same style of Classe Tendresse.
Manda Chante didn't leave by himself. He was forced out by Marie Paul who wanted to be the only leader of Wenge EL Paris and not wanted to share the money anymore with him. With him saying to the musicians that they don't must rehease anymore with him and that had to chose for him or Manda Chante with everybody chosing for Marie Paul, because they feared Marie Paul and didn't believe in Manda succeeding in a solo carreer. Before that they performed two times without him with nobody saying to him that they had a concert. Yes I saw him saying it sometimes that didn't agree with Marie Paul helping Werrason, but it wasn't of the main reasons that he left. That thing of Marie Paul helping Werrason is just a little problem. Before that many things happened between him and Marie Paul. If he would just leave for that, he would left Wenge EL Paris already in 1995.
That's not true Bill Clinton has 2 main crie, who people will remember him for it. He made the Mbuji-Mayi animation which alot of bands adopted, Delta Force of Pepe Kalle, Big Stars of Defao, Victoria Eleison of King Kester Emeneya and many others. After that he made his most famous crie "Tatu Kansebu", which almost everybody copied and from that atalaku's started animating in Tshiluba. Because before that animation was always done in Lingala or Kikongo and sometimes but very rare in Ki-humbu/Ki-teke (the original languague of Kinshasa).
Mboshi and Somono both did not create a to of "cri". They manly took them from somewhere. However, when it comes to performing those cris, Somono was better. Somono has the voice and the cadence to make you dance. Somono has a crazy groove. Mboshi is sometimes boring. But I'm not saying he's bad but there is a hierarchy between the two. Somono can move the crowd and control the place. Look at the Paris Ultimatum concert, Somono clearly outshines Mboshi.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEGnJ8icT3g
For the song, you're right, it wasn't Somono's, even if I still put it above Prototype. It was a bad example.
For Koffi, you're also right. Koffi started declining WITH Loi, not after.
Nobody cares about Mbuji Mayi Kananga and Tatu Kansebu anymore. Those cris did not pass the test of time like other iconic cris of the 90's. Koyimbiko is more remembered than any Clinton's cris. To be honest, the sebens from intervention rapide and Solola Bien are not even mentioned anymore. If you put Loi, Dede sur Mesure or Ndombolo ya solo in a party today, people will dance, even the young kids. If you put solola Bien, the reaction will be meh. Some people will dance but that's it.
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Evoloko was totally overrated singer in the Zaiko age. He was never that special to begin with. Unfortunately people such as my idols Franco and Pepe Kalle thought he was "special". This man was a wreck in making. His voice is so annoying. He is not the worst singer but he is not the best at all. For some reason my parents love his songs so much that they always want me to play them. I don't know what they see special about him. SMH.
Koffi Olomide was better with Josky than with everyone else. Josky and Koffi Olomide had a special musical connection that Koffi did not have with anyone else. Josky gave Koffi the chance to express himself in many ways.
Franco was better with Vicky Longomba than with Madilu System or Youlou Mabiala. Franco and Vicky understood each other well musically better than they did with others. Vicky was a classical tenor singer while Franco was a wild baritone singer and they mashed to a accurate harmony.
Nyboma belonged to Pepe Kalle and not Madilu. Pepe Kalle made Nyboma a better singer than anyone else. Including Koffi Olomide, Wuta Mayi, Madilu, and others.
Papa Wemba should have done a duet song with Ntesa Dalienst. Ntesa and Papa Wemba would have been a better duo
Franco should have gotten Tino Minkwa into OKJ. He would have been a great addition into OKJ.
Fally Ipupa and Heritier need to do a duet together
Madilu, Papa Wemba and Tabu Ley would have been a great trio.
Koffi Olomide was very jealous of the Wenge Musica style of music.
and I got more but that is what I got so far.
That's not true, more people will dance to Solola Bien than Ndombolo ya Solo. little kids born in the late 90's and 2000's dont even know hot to dance Ndombolo Ya Solo, since that there isn't a videoclip. While Solola Bien is each year promoted on Instagram-pages. It's also many times very rare to hear Ndombolo Ya Solo on parties or it had to be a 50th anniversairy of someone or people who like JB Mpiana alot. If they put generics of JB Mpiana then it's mostly only Mpunda and Kipe Ya Yo (Lopele).
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Evoloko was totally overrated singer in the Zaiko age. He was never that special to begin with. Unfortunately people such as my idols Franco and Pepe Kalle thought he was "special". This man was a wreck in making. His voice is so annoying. He is not the worst singer but he is not the best at all. For some reason my parents love his songs so much that they always want me to play them. I don't know what they see special about him. SMH.
Koffi Olomide was better with Josky than with everyone else. Josky and Koffi Olomide had a special musical connection that Koffi did not have with anyone else. Josky gave Koffi the chance to express himself in many ways.
Franco was better with Vicky Longomba than with Madilu System or Youlou Mabiala. Franco and Vicky understood each other well musically better than they did with others. Vicky was a classical tenor singer while Franco was a wild baritone singer and they mashed to a accurate harmony.
Nyboma belonged to Pepe Kalle and not Madilu. Pepe Kalle made Nyboma a better singer than anyone else. Including Koffi Olomide, Wuta Mayi, Madilu, and others.
Papa Wemba should have done a duet song with Ntesa Dalienst. Ntesa and Papa Wemba would have been a better duo
Franco should have gotten Tino Minkwa into OKJ. He would have been a great addition into OKJ.
Fally Ipupa and Heritier need to do a duet together
Madilu, Papa Wemba and Tabu Ley would have been a great trio.
Koffi Olomide was very jealous of the Wenge Musica style of music.
and I got more but that is what I got so far.
Hahaha say that right in the face to people who were born in the 50's and who witness the succes of Zaiko's Amujagi generation 1971-1974 and they will beat you in your face. Say that even in Koffi's face and he will say that are crazy in your head. It's because of Evoloko that Wemba changed his singing-style Wemba himself was a big fan of Evoloko in Zaiko. Wemba copied Evoloko's singing-style. The problem with Evoloko is that he doesn't do any effort with his voice anymore, since he became the only leader in Langa Langa Stars back in 1985. Back in the years 1973, 74, 75 & 76 every boy wanted to be like Evoloko. Evoloko & Gina Efonge are with Tabu Ley the idols of the most guys born in the 70's. If Evoloko wasn't jealous then Wemba wouldn't get a chance to succeed in his solo career.
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Seben is not what got people outside of Congo to love our music. Congolese music was played all over Africa since the 60's. Mbilia Bel is one of the most famous african musician in Latin America, especially Colombia, she never played seben. Franco was famous all over Africa, even the world. He wasn't a seben based musician.
There's a common misconception on what the sebene really is. in Marie Louise, Wendo Kolosoy yelled out in a "Yoka sebene" and the guitarists plucked out danceable melodies and rhythms, in a rhumba song. When it comes to the sebene, nakoyoka ba kulutus. They're the pioneers before Wenge, Zaiko, African Jazz etc. So when I hear people like you say, people outside of Congo don't care about the sebene, that's not true. To many Europeans, the sebene can be in a rhumba song. Franco thrived on the sebene: the danceable instrumental ending of a song.
Somehow through the Evolution of Congolese music, the sebene has been misconstrued to only belong to fast paced songs like generiques. I blame this on Soukous and Ndombolo.
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There's a common misconception on what the sebene really is. in Marie Louise, Wendo Kolosoy yelled out in a "Yoka sebene" and the guitarists plucked out danceable melodies and rhythms, in a rhumba song. When it comes to the sebene, nakoyoka ba kulutus. They're the pioneers before Wenge, Zaiko, African Jazz etc. So when I hear people like you say, people outside of Congo don't care about the sebene, that's not true. To many Europeans, the sebene can be in a rhumba song. Franco thrived on the sebene: the danceable instrumental ending of a song.
Somehow through the Evolution of Congolese music, the sebene has been misconstrued to only belong to fast paced songs like generiques. I blame this on Soukous and Ndombolo.
There's a common misconception on what the sebene really is. in Marie Louise, Wendo Kolosoy yelled out in a "Yoka sebene" and the guitarists plucked out danceable melodies and rhythms, in a rhumba song. When it comes to the sebene, nakoyoka ba kulutus. They're the pioneers before Wenge, Zaiko, African Jazz etc. So when I hear people like you say, people outside of Congo don't care about the sebene, that's not true. To many Europeans, the sebene can be in a rhumba song. Franco thrived on the sebene: the danceable instrumental ending of a song.
Somehow through the Evolution of Congolese music, the sebene has been misconstrued to only belong to fast paced songs like generiques. I blame this on Soukous and Ndombolo.
The Sebene used to mean the instrumental break in those hits of yore that you cite.
In those songs, the song would start slow, with the message or the story of the song being told. This would normally be where the vocalists would display their talent, with first voice, second voice and sometimes a chorus to reprise the hook line.
After the story is told, it was time to Dance!
The song would speed up, and it was time for the instrumentalists to display their art. Optionally you would also have the hook line reprised over and over, but sometimes you would have shout outs either to the instrumentalist who happened to be displaying their skill at that section, or call out a fan, donor e.t.c.
After the instrumental break ( Sebene) the song would slow down again, mostly with the chorus or reprise fading to the end.
Nowadays the Sebene has come to mean a song that starts slowly and then speeds up to a climax.
Contrast this with a Rumba which is a song that is sung on an even (mostly slow) tempo throughout.
A Generique is just the instrumental (Fast tempo) part, with cries (Shout outs) focusing mostly on mabangas, attacks or praises,
with little or no message.
I normally compare generiques to the raps and diss tracks in the Western hip Hop genre.
You would be right to attribute the generiques to the Soukuos/Ndombolo Era, where quantity ( Not necessarily quality) matters,
and it doesn't take much to be a generique musician....
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Seben is not what got people outside of Congo to love our music. Congolese music was played all over Africa since the 60's. Mbilia Bel is one of the most famous african musician in Latin America, especially Colombia, she never played seben. Franco was famous all over Africa, even the world. He wasn't a seben based musician.
There's a common misconception on what the sebene really is. in Marie Louise, Wendo Kolosoy yelled out in a "Yoka sebene" and the guitarists plucked out danceable melodies and rhythms, in a rhumba song. When it comes to the sebene, nakoyoka ba kulutus. They're the pioneers before Wenge, Zaiko, African Jazz etc. So when I hear people like you say, people outside of Congo don't care about the sebene, that's not true. To many Europeans, the sebene can be in a rhumba song. Franco thrived on the sebene: the danceable instrumental ending of a song.
Somehow through the Evolution of Congolese music, the sebene has been misconstrued to only belong to fast paced songs like generiques. I blame this on Soukous and Ndombolo.
What they called seven in the 50's and 60's like Mwana Mokili said is different from war we call seben since Zaiko and Manuaku. What they called seben was just a small part of the song. And nobody was singing, just instrumentalists displaying their skills on a fastest pace.
Tabu Ley, one the most famous and successful congolese musician in Congo and abroad even criticized Koffi after Effrakata because, according to him, he put too much seben and forgot pure rumba.
Saying Franco thrived on the seben is basically blasphemy.
Plus, where do you get the idea that : 1) european listened to our music 2) it was because of "seben"
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Evoloko was totally overrated singer in the Zaiko age. He was never that special to begin with. Unfortunately people such as my idols Franco and Pepe Kalle thought he was "special". This man was a wreck in making. His voice is so annoying. He is not the worst singer but he is not the best at all. For some reason my parents love his songs so much that they always want me to play them. I don't know what they see special about him. SMH.
Koffi Olomide was better with Josky than with everyone else. Josky and Koffi Olomide had a special musical connection that Koffi did not have with anyone else. Josky gave Koffi the chance to express himself in many ways.
Franco was better with Vicky Longomba than with Madilu System or Youlou Mabiala. Franco and Vicky understood each other well musically better than they did with others. Vicky was a classical tenor singer while Franco was a wild baritone singer and they mashed to a accurate harmony.
Nyboma belonged to Pepe Kalle and not Madilu. Pepe Kalle made Nyboma a better singer than anyone else. Including Koffi Olomide, Wuta Mayi, Madilu, and others.
Papa Wemba should have done a duet song with Ntesa Dalienst. Ntesa and Papa Wemba would have been a better duo
Franco should have gotten Tino Minkwa into OKJ. He would have been a great addition into OKJ.
Fally Ipupa and Heritier need to do a duet together
Madilu, Papa Wemba and Tabu Ley would have been a great trio.
Koffi Olomide was very jealous of the Wenge Musica style of music.
and I got more but that is what I got so far.
That's not true, more people will dance to Solola Bien than Ndombolo ya Solo. little kids born in the late 90's and 2000's dont even know hot to dance Ndombolo Ya Solo, since that there isn't a videoclip. While Solola Bien is each year promoted on Instagram-pages. It's also many times very rare to hear Ndombolo Ya Solo on parties or it had to be a 50th anniversairy of someone or people who like JB Mpiana alot. If they put generics of JB Mpiana then it's mostly only Mpunda and Kipe Ya Yo (Lopele).
In Congolese weddings and parties, Ndombolo and Loi are more played than Solola bien when it comes to throwback. Intervention rapide is basically never mentioned at all. Even on Youtube Loi and Ndombolo Ya Solo has more views than Solola Bien.
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Evoloko was totally overrated singer in the Zaiko age. He was never that special to begin with. Unfortunately people such as my idols Franco and Pepe Kalle thought he was "special". This man was a wreck in making. His voice is so annoying. He is not the worst singer but he is not the best at all. For some reason my parents love his songs so much that they always want me to play them. I don't know what they see special about him. SMH.
Koffi Olomide was better with Josky than with everyone else. Josky and Koffi Olomide had a special musical connection that Koffi did not have with anyone else. Josky gave Koffi the chance to express himself in many ways.
Franco was better with Vicky Longomba than with Madilu System or Youlou Mabiala. Franco and Vicky understood each other well musically better than they did with others. Vicky was a classical tenor singer while Franco was a wild baritone singer and they mashed to a accurate harmony.
Nyboma belonged to Pepe Kalle and not Madilu. Pepe Kalle made Nyboma a better singer than anyone else. Including Koffi Olomide, Wuta Mayi, Madilu, and others.
Papa Wemba should have done a duet song with Ntesa Dalienst. Ntesa and Papa Wemba would have been a better duo
Franco should have gotten Tino Minkwa into OKJ. He would have been a great addition into OKJ.
Fally Ipupa and Heritier need to do a duet together
Madilu, Papa Wemba and Tabu Ley would have been a great trio.
Koffi Olomide was very jealous of the Wenge Musica style of music.
and I got more but that is what I got so far.
That's not true, more people will dance to Solola Bien than Ndombolo ya Solo. little kids born in the late 90's and 2000's dont even know hot to dance Ndombolo Ya Solo, since that there isn't a videoclip. While Solola Bien is each year promoted on Instagram-pages. It's also many times very rare to hear Ndombolo Ya Solo on parties or it had to be a 50th anniversairy of someone or people who like JB Mpiana alot. If they put generics of JB Mpiana then it's mostly only Mpunda and Kipe Ya Yo (Lopele).
In Congolese weddings and parties, Ndombolo and Loi are more played than Solola bien when it comes to throwback. Intervention rapide is basically never mentioned at all. Even on Youtube Loi and Ndombolo Ya Solo has more views than Solola Bien.
Huh? Jb mpiana ndombolo is never played at parties, Solola bien is played almost all the time as for intervention Rapide only likelemba is played but only sometimes
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Saying Franco thrived on the seben is basically blasphemy.
Plus, where do you get the idea that : 1) european listened to our music 2) it was because of "seben"
Ask ANYONE here who have been a part of these forum groups for 15+ years and they will tell you, we had white members here. Ask those same people why those white members don't contribute anymore. Ask those same members who contributed faithfully to these forums, providing the latest news and reviews on new and past albums; who collected newspaper clippings and books; who attended concerts when artists like Koffi, Wenge, Zaiko or even Franco in the 80s came to their towns; ask those same members who spun Congolese tunes on their local radio stations; or even ask them about the journalists who wrote countless online articles about the evolution of Zaiko and its various offshoot groups like Choc Stars and Langa Langa Stars; ask about the photographers; and LASTLY ask them who had countless records, tapes and CDs spanning over three decades. They will honestly tell you, they were white people. Before we had Archos, we had those people and their resources.
As for your argument about Franco and the seben, danceable instrumentals are what he played! Chacun Por Soi, Tala Ba Pesa Merci, AZDA etc. All had sebenes. (I'm probably one of the biggest Franco fan on this forum next to FPK). This new/current meaning of a sebènè is a way to distort what it really is according to history.
Even historians and researchers say the same thing.
(https://s9.postimg.cc/ngcetzcxb/sebene.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/xdnfn1kiz/)
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Evoloko was totally overrated singer in the Zaiko age. He was never that special to begin with. Unfortunately people such as my idols Franco and Pepe Kalle thought he was "special". This man was a wreck in making. His voice is so annoying. He is not the worst singer but he is not the best at all. For some reason my parents love his songs so much that they always want me to play them. I don't know what they see special about him. SMH.
Koffi Olomide was better with Josky than with everyone else. Josky and Koffi Olomide had a special musical connection that Koffi did not have with anyone else. Josky gave Koffi the chance to express himself in many ways.
Franco was better with Vicky Longomba than with Madilu System or Youlou Mabiala. Franco and Vicky understood each other well musically better than they did with others. Vicky was a classical tenor singer while Franco was a wild baritone singer and they mashed to a accurate harmony.
Nyboma belonged to Pepe Kalle and not Madilu. Pepe Kalle made Nyboma a better singer than anyone else. Including Koffi Olomide, Wuta Mayi, Madilu, and others.
Papa Wemba should have done a duet song with Ntesa Dalienst. Ntesa and Papa Wemba would have been a better duo
Franco should have gotten Tino Minkwa into OKJ. He would have been a great addition into OKJ.
Fally Ipupa and Heritier need to do a duet together
Madilu, Papa Wemba and Tabu Ley would have been a great trio.
Koffi Olomide was very jealous of the Wenge Musica style of music.
and I got more but that is what I got so far.
Hahaha say that right in the face to people who were born in the 50's and who witness the succes of Zaiko's Amujagi generation 1971-1974 and they will beat you in your face. Say that even in Koffi's face and he will say that are crazy in your head. It's because of Evoloko that Wemba changed his singing-style Wemba himself was a big fan of Evoloko in Zaiko. Wemba copied Evoloko's singing-style. The problem with Evoloko is that he doesn't do any effort with his voice anymore, since he became the only leader in Langa Langa Stars back in 1985. Back in the years 1973, 74, 75 & 76 every boy wanted to be like Evoloko. Evoloko & Gina Efonge are with Tabu Ley the idols of the most guys born in the 70's. If Evoloko wasn't jealous then Wemba wouldn't get a chance to succeed in his solo career.
That is why my statement is more valid. He was made a bigger than he was actually. Everyone wanted to be like him. That is including my parents especially my dad who was born in the 1950s indeed. He would always tell me how his songs were so strong and impacted many lives. I would look at my dad and go REALLY. Listen to Franco, Tabu Ley, Pepe Kalle (when he was young at this time), Bella Bella, and others before you start falling over heels of a overrated singer at best. It is unfortunate because they were better talent than this "Evoloko" person that was given.
BTW Evoloko would have been better off if he and Gina Efonge got together and form a band together. They actually sound very nice together. They complement their crazy voices. Listen to the beginning of the song Dechaence, you will see beautiful harmony between Evoloko and Gina together.
Another example was Mbeya Mbeya remix here. It was with Bozi Boziana. Evoloko and Gina mix well together musically
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49B7Qne_I6Q
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Here is another unpopular opinion for everyone.
Papy Tex sounded much better with a voice of Madilu rather than a voice of Pepe Kalle. Madilu and Papy Tex have raspy effects in their styles of singing. Madilu's baritone and Papy Tex's tenor styles mixed together much more than Pepe Kalle's baritone with Papy Tex's tenor as well as Madilu's baritone with Nyboma's tenor.
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This debate about sebene and rhumba is so tired but will never end on this forum because people prefer different things. If you love sebene, make sure you collect all available sebene songs(and there are a million of them) and enjoy but dont force it down people's throats that sebene is better than rhumba and the same applies to rhumba lovers. A good example is Kenya where sebene is almost non-existent. Take a sampling of all popular clubs not just in Nairobi but even in small towns like Mlolongo, Migori,Kitengela and you will never hear sebene being played.Yet almost all these towns have full time rhumba clubs with Kitengela and Mlolongo for example having clubs named Rhumba House . In Nairobi for example Ali Mayimona is already on rotation at Samba, the Signature chain of clubs, yet the same revellers are totally clueless about Kelvis Nkoyi or Diemba for that matter. In Kenya people know Ferre more for Kamasutra than for Boss or Seben or all his generiques. The most popular song by Fally in Kenya is Associe and the official Koffi song over here is Fouta Djallon. So in DRC seben may be popular but over here nobody cares about sebene and just wants to listen to rhumba. It is a relative topic so insisting everyday that sebene or rhumba is better is like arguing over which one between apples and oranges is better!!!!You are entitled to a preference and an opinion but not everyone shares that preference/opinion.
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Saying Franco thrived on the seben is basically blasphemy.
Plus, where do you get the idea that : 1) european listened to our music 2) it was because of "seben"
Ask ANYONE here who have been a part of these forum groups for 15+ years and they will tell you, we had white members here. Ask those same people why those white members don't contribute anymore. Ask those same members who contributed faithfully to these forums, providing the latest news and reviews on new and past albums; who collected newspaper clippings and books; who attended concerts when artists like Koffi, Wenge, Zaiko or even Franco in the 80s came to their towns; ask those same members who spun Congolese tunes on their local radio stations; or even ask them about the journalists who wrote countless online articles about the evolution of Zaiko and its various offshoot groups like Choc Stars and Langa Langa Stars; ask about the photographers; and LASTLY ask them who had countless records, tapes and CDs spanning over three decades. They will honestly tell you, they were white people. Before we had Archos, we had those people and their resources.
As for your argument about Franco and the seben, danceable instrumentals are what he played! Chacun Por Soi, Tala Ba Pesa Merci, AZDA etc. All had sebenes. (I'm probably one of the biggest Franco fan on this forum next to FPK). This new/current meaning of a sebènè is a way to distort what it really is according to history.
Even historians and researchers say the same thing.
(https://s9.postimg.cc/ngcetzcxb/sebene.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/xdnfn1kiz/)
Having white members on a forum does not mean white people listen to our music. I know white people who like pondu but I'll never say that white people like to eat our food. You're turning anecdote into rule. Congolese music was never popular among westerners. The fact that some white people with a big curiosity were interested in our music does not change that. Our music was popular in Congo and Africa. The average african man listened to congolese music. The average westerner did not know about it or did not care about it. This is like saying that Africans listened to Johnny Haliday. It's not true, even though you'll find some Africans who listened to him.
You're listing songs with sebens, but you can't prove that Franco success came from those seben. If the seben was so important why in most cases the seben part was smaller than the rumba part ? And how many pure seben songs back then ? A lot of songs also did not have seben. You can't prove that seben is what drove people outside of Congo to listen to our music. It's something people always claimed but they can't prove it.
Once again, the seben of the 60's is way different from what we call seben today. And to be honest, I don't take wikipedia and its sources seriously when it comes to our culture.
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my take on this is debate is this one,what made our music popular is ability to make people dance,odemba and fiesta have a dancing flavor to them with the drum tempo,saxo and so on,then soukous came still making people dance,then ndombolo came while another form of rumba which people summarize as tchatcho popped up and established itself as by far the most used nowadays(especially as many automatically call computer rumbas tchatcho these days)
most of today's rumbas are danced just for the sake of dancing together,put songs like fatimata on african parties with our parents of african countries or ourselves as adults now and put those current computer rumbas you'll see the difference of excitement to dance
listen for example to when koffi sang coucou with drums dictating tempo and whatever full of effects rumba of nowadays,i bet you'll sense something,the fact people could dance and at the same time hear lyrics well made a looooot of people want to learn lingala back since our parents or grand parents
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Having white members on a forum does not mean white people listen to our music. I know white people who like pondu but I'll never say that white people like to eat our food. You're turning anecdote into rule. Congolese music was never popular among westerners. The fact that some white people with a big curiosity were interested in our music does not change that. Our music was popular in Congo and Africa. The average african man listened to congolese music. The average westerner did not know about it or did not care about it. This is like saying that Africans listened to Johnny Haliday. It's not true, even though you'll find some Africans who listened to him.
You're putting words in my mouth. I never said white people as a whole listen and enjoy African music. My point was, don't think that the music was only listened to in Africa. Franco's Live in Holland album should be proof. If you check out his set lists when he performed there, all of his songs were danceable with major emphasis on the sebenes. Franco knew who to cater to. Despite what Tabu Ley said, he too knew who to cater to when he was outside of Africa. White people can't understand songs like Jugement or Mauvais Temps, it does nothing for them because they don't understand Lingala. If the sebene wasn't/isn't important, why is it being copied and duplicated all over Africa? You can hear it in Afro Pop and Coupe Decale.
You're listing songs with sebens, but you can't prove that Franco success came from those seben. If the seben was so important why in most cases the seben part was smaller than the rumba part ? And how many pure seben songs back then ? A lot of songs also did not have seben. You can't prove that seben is what drove people outside of Congo to listen to our music. It's something people always claimed but they can't prove it.
Once again you're putting words in my mouth. I never said Franco's success came from sebene. His success came from nkisi (I'm kidding). All jokes aside, you're right, some songs didn't have sebene, but it was rare. There was a story in another forum told by PC Mpondolo, I think, about Papa Noel wanting to play solo like the guitarists in Zaiko and the other younger bands but Franco told him to keep it simple and it worked.The reason why the sebene was shorter? They all had messages. Those songs were carefully arranged and crafted. You also have to look at the times. We didn't have CDs or MP3s back then. Candidat Na Biso Mobutu, is over 20 minutes long and had to be broken up into two sides on an EP.
But I ask you again, why don't we have white people commenting on this forum, compared to 10 years ago? It's because after Sens Interdiet and Droit Chemin, the music changed. Too many of them, some whom I am still friends with to this day, will tell you that the music sounds too R&B and nothing for them to dance to. I let one of them listen to Marlene de Reve by Watanabe and told him to listen for OK Jazz elements and he told me he couldn't get past the R&B. Just out of curiosity, how long have you lived outside of Africa?
Once again, the seben of the 60's is way different from what we call seben today.
You're busy trying to argue with me, but I've been saying this ALL along. The definition is definitely skewed. Fact of the matter is, whether it is a generique or in a rhumba, a sebene is a sebene, no matter how you try to spin it.
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Whats these other forums you guys speak of
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Whats these other forums you guys speak of
Many of us are migrants from different forums that existed prior to this forum and got deleted for various reasons. One time Werra's people didn't like what we were say about them (constructive criticism) so they got Vibes d'Afrique deleted in 2011 or so, if I remember correctly... thats why there's a Werrason-only section above that we no longer really use.
A lot of the great contributors from the past are Martin Sinnock "Muana Machete", Papa PC (the great contrarian ;D), Ronald, Frank, Haha Le Prof (Koffiphile #1), Yvonne, Ms T, Heri and more used to contribute so much for Congolese music online with articles, concert footage, and opinions, but they all no longer participate, which is pretty sad and a direct refelection of the state of Congolese music. I learned a lot from them, since those days i wasn't contributing as much with posts.
Some of our old timers here are DJ Sly, Emo, Archos, Werrasonique de Zimbabwe, Tata Nkiadi, Nyumu Wa Mukiti, Bencuri, Ken Bilele & Mwana Nsalu (may she rest in peace)
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Bencurri the youtube legend. I was so happy to see he was part of this forum.
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I remember Vibesdeafrique very well
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What is killing our music is mixing it with the Rap / RnB style. Ferré QQJD's album is a good return to the sources even though the generiques are a failure. What we need is also to find sebenes as violent as Loi, Kibuisa Mpimpa, Trop c'est trop ...
Rumba is not as intriguing to people as sebene
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Having white members on a forum does not mean white people listen to our music. I know white people who like pondu but I'll never say that white people like to eat our food. You're turning anecdote into rule. Congolese music was never popular among westerners. The fact that some white people with a big curiosity were interested in our music does not change that. Our music was popular in Congo and Africa. The average african man listened to congolese music. The average westerner did not know about it or did not care about it. This is like saying that Africans listened to Johnny Haliday. It's not true, even though you'll find some Africans who listened to him.
You're putting words in my mouth. I never said white people as a whole listen and enjoy African music. My point was, don't think that the music was only listened to in Africa. Franco's Live in Holland album should be proof. If you check out his set lists when he performed there, all of his songs were danceable with major emphasis on the sebenes. Franco knew who to cater to. Despite what Tabu Ley said, he too knew who to cater to when he was outside of Africa. White people can't understand songs like Jugement or Mauvais Temps, it does nothing for them because they don't understand Lingala. If the sebene wasn't/isn't important, why is it being copied and duplicated all over Africa? You can hear it in Afro Pop and Coupe Decale.
You're listing songs with sebens, but you can't prove that Franco success came from those seben. If the seben was so important why in most cases the seben part was smaller than the rumba part ? And how many pure seben songs back then ? A lot of songs also did not have seben. You can't prove that seben is what drove people outside of Congo to listen to our music. It's something people always claimed but they can't prove it.
Once again you're putting words in my mouth. I never said Franco's success came from sebene. His success came from nkisi (I'm kidding). All jokes aside, you're right, some songs didn't have sebene, but it was rare. There was a story in another forum told by PC Mpondolo, I think, about Papa Noel wanting to play solo like the guitarists in Zaiko and the other younger bands but Franco told him to keep it simple and it worked.The reason why the sebene was shorter? They all had messages. Those songs were carefully arranged and crafted. You also have to look at the times. We didn't have CDs or MP3s back then. Candidat Na Biso Mobutu, is over 20 minutes long and had to be broken up into two sides on an EP.
But I ask you again, why don't we have white people commenting on this forum, compared to 10 years ago? It's because after Sens Interdiet and Droit Chemin, the music changed. Too many of them, some whom I am still friends with to this day, will tell you that the music sounds too R&B and nothing for them to dance to. I let one of them listen to Marlene de Reve by Watanabe and told him to listen for OK Jazz elements and he told me he couldn't get past the R&B. Just out of curiosity, how long have you lived outside of Africa?
Once again, the seben of the 60's is way different from what we call seben today.
You're busy trying to argue with me, but I've been saying this ALL along. The definition is definitely skewed. Fact of the matter is, whether it is a generique or in a rhumba, a sebene is a sebene, no matter how you try to spin it.
You're the one who started talking about white people/europeans. The debate I had with CM Prince was about whether seben was the main thing that attracted people outside of Congo to our music.
When you start talking about congolese music being played outside, we're talking about Africa. That's our field. Our music is not played in Europe. It's not played in mainstream radio; it's not played in mainstream shows on TV. It will appear from time to time when they want something "exotic". Talking about white listeners of our music is basically an anecdote.
You brought Franco's performance in Utrecht, it was a festival, not a concert. The only time you'll see african musicians playing african music in front of huge crowd of white people is in festivals. That's it. Of course, Franco gave them "shake your ass" music. That's the caricatural vision the average casual european listener has when it comes to african music. I'm sure most of these guys in that Utrecht show could not tell you the difference between Franco and Fela Kuti. And when the festival was done, they went back listening to Led Zepelin and Pink Floyd.
When Koffi was at his peak, when he was the biggest african musician, he filled bERcy and the crowd was 90% (maybe more) african. How many time a congolese musician charted in Europe ?
In reality, europeans who really listen to congolese music, the same way africans do, are extremely rare. It's a niche.
So when we're talking about congolese music being played outside, we are talking about Africa. That's it. Talking about white listeners or white commentators is irrelevant.
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What is killing our music is mixing it with the Rap / RnB style. Ferré QQJD's album is a good return to the sources even though the generiques are a failure. What we need is also to find sebenes as violent as Loi, Kibuisa Mpimpa, Trop c'est trop ...
Rumba is not as intriguing to people as sebene
Yep.
I hate those Hip-Hop/RnB rumba with a passion. Once again, I blame Fally for its spreading.
I'll never be a big fan of this generation, but if Ferre manage to give us excellent seben, he'll be the indisputed king of his generation.
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Having white members on a forum does not mean white people listen to our music. I know white people who like pondu but I'll never say that white people like to eat our food. You're turning anecdote into rule. Congolese music was never popular among westerners. The fact that some white people with a big curiosity were interested in our music does not change that. Our music was popular in Congo and Africa. The average african man listened to congolese music. The average westerner did not know about it or did not care about it. This is like saying that Africans listened to Johnny Haliday. It's not true, even though you'll find some Africans who listened to him.
You're putting words in my mouth. I never said white people as a whole listen and enjoy African music. My point was, don't think that the music was only listened to in Africa. Franco's Live in Holland album should be proof. If you check out his set lists when he performed there, all of his songs were danceable with major emphasis on the sebenes. Franco knew who to cater to. Despite what Tabu Ley said, he too knew who to cater to when he was outside of Africa. White people can't understand songs like Jugement or Mauvais Temps, it does nothing for them because they don't understand Lingala. If the sebene wasn't/isn't important, why is it being copied and duplicated all over Africa? You can hear it in Afro Pop and Coupe Decale.
You're listing songs with sebens, but you can't prove that Franco success came from those seben. If the seben was so important why in most cases the seben part was smaller than the rumba part ? And how many pure seben songs back then ? A lot of songs also did not have seben. You can't prove that seben is what drove people outside of Congo to listen to our music. It's something people always claimed but they can't prove it.
Once again you're putting words in my mouth. I never said Franco's success came from sebene. His success came from nkisi (I'm kidding). All jokes aside, you're right, some songs didn't have sebene, but it was rare. There was a story in another forum told by PC Mpondolo, I think, about Papa Noel wanting to play solo like the guitarists in Zaiko and the other younger bands but Franco told him to keep it simple and it worked.The reason why the sebene was shorter? They all had messages. Those songs were carefully arranged and crafted. You also have to look at the times. We didn't have CDs or MP3s back then. Candidat Na Biso Mobutu, is over 20 minutes long and had to be broken up into two sides on an EP.
But I ask you again, why don't we have white people commenting on this forum, compared to 10 years ago? It's because after Sens Interdiet and Droit Chemin, the music changed. Too many of them, some whom I am still friends with to this day, will tell you that the music sounds too R&B and nothing for them to dance to. I let one of them listen to Marlene de Reve by Watanabe and told him to listen for OK Jazz elements and he told me he couldn't get past the R&B. Just out of curiosity, how long have you lived outside of Africa?
Once again, the seben of the 60's is way different from what we call seben today.
You're busy trying to argue with me, but I've been saying this ALL along. The definition is definitely skewed. Fact of the matter is, whether it is a generique or in a rhumba, a sebene is a sebene, no matter how you try to spin it.
You're the one who started talking about white people/europeans. The debate I had with CM Prince was about whether seben was the main thing that attracted people outside of Congo to our music.
When you start talking about congolese music being played outside, we're talking about Africa. That's our field. Our music is not played in Europe. It's not played in mainstream radio; it's not played in mainstream shows on TV. It will appear from time to time when they want something "exotic". Talking about white listeners of our music is basically an anecdote.
You brought Franco's performance in Utrecht, it was a festival, not a concert. The only time you'll see african musicians playing african music in front of huge crowd of white people is in festivals. That's it. Of course, Franco gave them "shake your ass" music. That's the caricatural vision the average casual european listener has when it comes to african music. I'm sure most of these guys in that Utrecht show could not tell you the difference between Franco and Fela Kuti. And when the festival was done, they went back listening to Led Zepelin and Pink Floyd.
When Koffi was at his peak, when he was the biggest african musician, he filled bERcy and the crowd was 90% (maybe more) african. How many time a congolese musician charted in Europe ?
In reality, europeans who really listen to congolese music, the same way africans do, are extremely rare. It's a niche.
So when we're talking about congolese music being played outside, we are talking about Africa. That's it. Talking about white listeners or white commentators is irrelevant.
Ouch ;D waiting to see what the reply will be but holy shit Paysan. Glad im not on the other hsnd of that debate lol it’d be hard to come with a rebuttal to this
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Ouch ;D waiting to see what the reply will be but holy shit Paysan. Glad im not on the other hsnd of that debate lol it’d be hard to come with a rebuttal to this
He’s in the minority. I don’t know what’s funnier, the fact that he’s only arguing with me but everyone else has come to the same conclusion about the sebene, or the fact that I can tear down every thing he says and he’ll come back with opinions rather than facts. It’s like the GOP defending Donald Trump on TV. It’s no longer worth my time. He can keep the boring rhumbas with no sebene. People like what they like. Where is Adoyo when I need him lol
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Ouch ;D waiting to see what the reply will be but holy shit Paysan. Glad im not on the other hsnd of that debate lol it’d be hard to come with a rebuttal to this
He’s in the minority. I don’t know what’s funnier, the fact that he’s only arguing with me but everyone else has come to the same conclusion about the sebene, or the fact that I can tear down every thing he says and he’ll come back with opinions rather than facts. It’s like the GOP defending Donald Trump on TV. It’s no longer worth my time. He can keep the boring rhumbas with no sebene. People like what they like. Where is Adoyo when I need him lol
Lol go ahead then. Im curious to see your rebuttal. I love good debates, and I cant even remember what you guys are arguing but the last one of his messages did have a lot of great logical points.
I personally love both rumbas and sebenes so I dont have a dog in this fight. Just a fan of good healthy debates.
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Ouch ;D waiting to see what the reply will be but holy shit Paysan. Glad im not on the other hsnd of that debate lol it’d be hard to come with a rebuttal to this
He’s in the minority. I don’t know what’s funnier, the fact that he’s only arguing with me but everyone else has come to the same conclusion about the sebene, or the fact that I can tear down every thing he says and he’ll come back with opinions rather than facts. It’s like the GOP defending Donald Trump on TV. It’s no longer worth my time. He can keep the boring rhumbas with no sebene. People like what they like. Where is Adoyo when I need him lol
Being in a minority ?
LOL. Who cares ? Do you think this is a beauty contest ? Also, do you need back-up to state your point ?
Everybody reached the same conclusion ?
Yeah, SIMPLICITY's post is a clear example...
Boring rhumba with no sebene ?
This is so ridiculous it's almost funny !
Yeah, I'll keep listening to "boring" rumbas. Some of us love and value the genre in all its aspects, and not only the seben part.
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I thought since we sort of know where members stand with which artists/groups and music time periods we like, it’d be interesting to know opinions you have that aren’t of popular opinion. I think alternative viewpoints can make for interesting discussions/debates.
- People gave Werra crap for his singing abilities, but in recent years... there some times where I think JB is an overrated singer as blasphemous as it sounds. Particularly when I watch some of his later concerts. After TH and Internet, it seemed to me he wasn’t putting that much effort into his singing like he used to. Makaba really brought best out of him in the golden era Wenge 4x4 BCBG TT. I am well aware that part of the reason is because of the period of vache maigre he went through during the mid-2000’s.
- I think Evoloko Lay Lay was the worst leader/singer. I was a big fan of his dances like “Dallas” way back in the day, but his singing voice always seemed to be a cheap version of Wemba’s. In some songs his voice sounds like a whining child. He is good on chorus though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bE2zKr2T7nQ
His featuring on 13eme apotre was disappointing. Cindy was doing too much also.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi92rFerE2U
- Koffi completely lost consistency after BEK. I struggle to listen (or want to listen) to just about all his albums post-2008, but I think most of us agree on that.
Love this topic and couldn’t agree more on the points u made....shocking in recent years i started admitting to my friend JB had it easy! For a guy like me who skipped classes or got in trouble during BCBG vs MM era it shocks my friends...but they kniw if Makaba had started his own band with Same energy Tata Started Tonya Tonya, id go there.
Concerning the older genenration ahaha..Tho Evoloko’s voice did not annoy me like it did with many members here! Me it will always be Likinga’s voice that i can never stand! I like his songs...but when sang by JP Buse or Adamo
The other guy is Mashakado,my dad’s fav member....beside bringing the show with is extra dancing, his voice never impressed me! Same with his musical career
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the mabanga shit is stupid why cant these people name be written in the cd booklet or something lol why do I have to hear Heritier Itele, Lorenzo etc name and sometimes make songs a little intolerable like on Eternellement,Ligne 11 and more
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Eeh bozongisi sujet ya 2018 ????????
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Eeh bozongisi sujet ya 2018 ????????
Check your DM please
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the mabanga shit is stupid why cant these people name be written in the cd booklet or something lol why do I have to hear Heritier Itele, Lorenzo etc name and sometimes make songs a little intolerable like on Eternellement,Ligne 11 and more
Cause that's how they make money, a random guy named El Double Kamidiora Francisco Mujinga Mulamba Madiola gives you 1000 dollars to sing his name, what you finna do? And when the Mulamba Madiola becomes a 100 and all give between 1000 and 5000 dollars what you will do refusing? If Internet was wide spread in Congo and there weren't so much piracy on Congolese music we wouldn't hear Mabangas, anyway to me what kill the genre was this obsession in following Nigerian for Older artists and to just make Rhumba like the young guys are doing, I can listen to Deplick crying one a week but not a whole year of him and But Na Fillet crying about their exes
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- Bek is better than monde arabe
- Even if ql use to « steal » animations, ql/koffi’s discography remain the greatest of our music
- Savanet depitcho is a great singer
- bouro cant sing no more since 2010
- Bercy aint the best koffi’s concert
- Jordan kusa is a good singer
- Bek is one of the best arranged album of congo
- Junior kingombe outshined every singer in monde arabe
- nono ba diamant in th>>>>> nono ba diamant in v12, loi & olympia
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Feux D Amour is the best arranged album of Clan Wenge
Pentagon the best Group Album
Alain Makaba is overrated, he is a good soloist but not overall good musician as he is being portrayed, he has done nothing notable post Wenge
JB Mpiana is the most talented, Most charismatic and most lazy Musician of Wenge, if he had half the aggressiveness of Werrason or Koffi olomide , he would have been the best ever Musician of Congo, but he is still the best of his generation
Werrason is a very good tactician and the most aggressive of the Wenge Clan, he is the brain behind most of the strategies. Those characters helped him to build Maison Merre into a formidable force, but he cannot sing to help himself.
Adolph Dominguez was lucky to be a member of Wenge, out of Wenge he would be nobody
Koffi Olomide albums were better arranged than those of Wenge, that is why he had a good following in Africa. Since most of Fans do not understand Lingala, they always go for well arranged album. I was surprised to learn that Force D intervention Rapide was a success in Congo, the album was very poor arranged, Titanic was the best Album of that year.
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Feux D Amour is the best arranged album of Clan Wenge
Pentagon the best Group Album
Alain Makaba is overrated, he is a good soloist but not overall good musician as he is being portrayed, he has done nothing notable post Wenge
JB Mpiana is the most talented, Most charismatic and most lazy Musician of Wenge, if he had half the aggressiveness of Werrason or Koffi olomide , he would have been the best ever Musician of Congo, but he is still the best of his generation
Werrason is a very good tactician and the most aggressive of the Wenge Clan, he is the brain behind most of the strategies. Those characters helped him to build Maison Merre into a formidable force, but he cannot sing to help himself.
Adolph Dominguez was lucky to be a member of Wenge, out of Wenge he would be nobody
Koffi Olomide albums were better arranged than those of Wenge, that is why he had a good following in Africa. Since most of Fans do not understand Lingala, they always go for well arranged album. I was surprised to learn that Force D intervention Rapide was a success in Congo, the album was very poor arranged, Titanic was the best Album of that year.
With arranged what do you mean? The overall sound or the mix of instruments? Maybe some Guitar playing.more loud then the other things like this or the sound quality being just bad?
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the mabanga shit is stupid why cant these people name be written in the cd booklet or something lol why do I have to hear Heritier Itele, Lorenzo etc name and sometimes make songs a little intolerable like on Eternellement,Ligne 11 and more
Cause that's how they make money, a random guy named El Double Kamidiora Francisco Mujinga Mulamba Madiola gives you 1000 dollars to sing his name, what you finna do? And when the Mulamba Madiola becomes a 100 and all give between 1000 and 5000 dollars what you will do refusing? If Internet was wide spread in Congo and there weren't so much piracy on Congolese music we wouldn't hear Mabangas, anyway to me what kill the genre was this obsession in following Nigerian for Older artists and to just make Rhumba like the young guys are doing, I can listen to Deplick crying one a week but not a whole year of him and But Na Fillet crying about their exes
i would say no but if that's the only revenue that black artist in Africa have then I would said yes of course
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Feux D Amour is the best arranged album of Clan Wenge
Pentagon the best Group Album
Alain Makaba is overrated, he is a good soloist but not overall good musician as he is being portrayed, he has done nothing notable post Wenge
JB Mpiana is the most talented, Most charismatic and most lazy Musician of Wenge, if he had half the aggressiveness of Werrason or Koffi olomide , he would have been the best ever Musician of Congo, but he is still the best of his generation
Werrason is a very good tactician and the most aggressive of the Wenge Clan, he is the brain behind most of the strategies. Those characters helped him to build Maison Merre into a formidable force, but he cannot sing to help himself.
Adolph Dominguez was lucky to be a member of Wenge, out of Wenge he would be nobody
Koffi Olomide albums were better arranged than those of Wenge, that is why he had a good following in Africa. Since most of Fans do not understand Lingala, they always go for well arranged album. I was surprised to learn that Force D intervention Rapide was a success in Congo, the album was very poor arranged, Titanic was the best Album of that year.
So Pepe Felly Manuaku and Flamme Kapaya are also overrated ? Because they also didn't do anything nor joining a band.
Drummers like Meridjo and Champion Djikapela are also overrated because they had done nothing notable after leaving their bands ? So Nono Monzoloko and Ditutala is also overrated because he done nothing notable after Zaiko
*Alain Makaba participated to
Fula Ngenge and Bakala Dia Kuba of Papa Wemba and one of album of Deesse
Mukangi in 2002.
Alain Makaba dissapeared from the Congolese music-scene because he was very dissapointed and had lost the love he had with our music. In the same period he was married to the daugther of the late Omar Bongo who used to be president of Gabon at that time. Pepe Felly Manuaku for example (who is seen as the father of sebene) was in the same situation, until that Papa Wemba went to get him to participate in Pole Position and later on the Le Quatro+1 project. However he was not motivated anymore and felt that Congolese people weren't giving him the respect he deserved. He tried to settle in Angola, because he's parents are from there, but he felt as a foreigner there and came back to Kinshasa where he works nowadays in Socoda.
The circumstantes also count to the album. Your album can be of high quality, but still not being well received. We have seen it with Emeneya's album Everybody who was a huge flop, but only getting the respect it deserved when he passed away. In the period the critized Emeneya alot and said that he throw his rhythm in the streets and Wenge picked up. Comparing it to Kalayi Boeing who was a huge succes and who had those tribal guitar-sound in the main song, which the original Victoria Eleison used to have.
The moment when Titanic and Force d'Intervention Rapide got released, alot music-fans and press had sympathy for Werrason, who recorded Force d'Intervention Rapide in difficult conditions (The civil war started, the money devalued, rebels cut the hydroelectro-dam down which created alot problems in Kinshasa) and the public was already used with Wenge BCBG due to their names already being known and their concerts at Bataclan, Madeleine & Palais du Peuple, while Wenge Maison Mere was something new, the singers not known yet. Also JB Mpiana made some declarations in the press, which made many of his own fans turn their towards him and going to support Werrason and alot people hating him.
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Feux D Amour is the best arranged album of Clan Wenge
Pentagon the best Group Album
Alain Makaba is overrated, he is a good soloist but not overall good musician as he is being portrayed, he has done nothing notable post Wenge
JB Mpiana is the most talented, Most charismatic and most lazy Musician of Wenge, if he had half the aggressiveness of Werrason or Koffi olomide , he would have been the best ever Musician of Congo, but he is still the best of his generation
Werrason is a very good tactician and the most aggressive of the Wenge Clan, he is the brain behind most of the strategies. Those characters helped him to build Maison Merre into a formidable force, but he cannot sing to help himself.
Adolph Dominguez was lucky to be a member of Wenge, out of Wenge he would be nobody
Koffi Olomide albums were better arranged than those of Wenge, that is why he had a good following in Africa. Since most of Fans do not understand Lingala, they always go for well arranged album. I was surprised to learn that Force D intervention Rapide was a success in Congo, the album was very poor arranged, Titanic was the best Album of that year.
With arranged what do you mean? The overall sound or the mix of instruments? Maybe some Guitar playing.more loud then the other things like this or the sound quality being just bad?
Overall sound, the quality of the album is very high, although some people have been complaining about the drum set
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Feux D Amour is the best arranged album of Clan Wenge
Pentagon the best Group Album
Alain Makaba is overrated, he is a good soloist but not overall good musician as he is being portrayed, he has done nothing notable post Wenge
JB Mpiana is the most talented, Most charismatic and most lazy Musician of Wenge, if he had half the aggressiveness of Werrason or Koffi olomide , he would have been the best ever Musician of Congo, but he is still the best of his generation
Werrason is a very good tactician and the most aggressive of the Wenge Clan, he is the brain behind most of the strategies. Those characters helped him to build Maison Merre into a formidable force, but he cannot sing to help himself.
Adolph Dominguez was lucky to be a member of Wenge, out of Wenge he would be nobody
Koffi Olomide albums were better arranged than those of Wenge, that is why he had a good following in Africa. Since most of Fans do not understand Lingala, they always go for well arranged album. I was surprised to learn that Force D intervention Rapide was a success in Congo, the album was very poor arranged, Titanic was the best Album of that year.
So Pepe Felly Manuaku and Flamme Kapaya are also overrated ? Because they also didn't do anything nor joining a band.
Drummers like Meridjo and Champion Djikapela are also overrated because they had done nothing notable after leaving their bands ? So Nono Monzoloko and Ditutala is also overrated because he done nothing notable after Zaiko
*Alain Makaba participated to
Fula Ngenge and Bakala Dia Kuba of Papa Wemba and one of album of Deesse
Mukangi in 2002.
Alain Makaba dissapeared from the Congolese music-scene because he was very dissapointed and had lost the love he had with our music. In the same period he was married to the daugther of the late Omar Bongo who used to be president of Gabon at that time. Pepe Felly Manuaku for example (who is seen as the father of sebene) was in the same situation, until that Papa Wemba went to get him to participate in Pole Position and later on the Le Quatro+1 project. However he was not motivated anymore and felt that Congolese people weren't giving him the respect he deserved. He tried to settle in Angola, because he's parents are from there, but he felt as a foreigner there and came back to Kinshasa where he works nowadays in Socoda.
The circumstantes also count to the album. Your album can be of high quality, but still not being well received. We have seen it with Emeneya's album Everybody who was a huge flop, but only getting the respect it deserved when he passed away. In the period the critized Emeneya alot and said that he throw his rhythm in the streets and Wenge picked up. Comparing it to Kalayi Boeing who was a huge succes and who had those tribal guitar-sound in the main song, which the original Victoria Eleison used to have.
The moment when Titanic and Force d'Intervention Rapide got released, alot music-fans and press had sympathy for Werrason, who recorded Force d'Intervention Rapide in difficult conditions (The civil war started, the money devalued, rebels cut the hydroelectro-dam down which created alot problems in Kinshasa) and the public was already used with Wenge BCBG due to their names already being known and their concerts at Bataclan, Madeleine & Palais du Peuple, while Wenge Maison Mere was something new, the singers not known yet. Also JB Mpiana made some declarations in the press, which made many of his own fans turn their towards him and going to support Werrason and alot people hating him.
Thank you for clarification, it seems guitarists in Congo have a challenge when it comes to going solo, Diblo succeeded a bit with Matchatcha, although i doubt if he was well received in Congo as Paris based musician are not appreciated there. I still wonder what would Force D intervention rapid be if recorded in Paris. The songs were really good, the vocals top quality only the sound.
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Feux D Amour is the best arranged album of Clan Wenge
Pentagon the best Group Album
Alain Makaba is overrated, he is a good soloist but not overall good musician as he is being portrayed, he has done nothing notable post Wenge
JB Mpiana is the most talented, Most charismatic and most lazy Musician of Wenge, if he had half the aggressiveness of Werrason or Koffi olomide , he would have been the best ever Musician of Congo, but he is still the best of his generation
Werrason is a very good tactician and the most aggressive of the Wenge Clan, he is the brain behind most of the strategies. Those characters helped him to build Maison Merre into a formidable force, but he cannot sing to help himself.
Adolph Dominguez was lucky to be a member of Wenge, out of Wenge he would be nobody
Koffi Olomide albums were better arranged than those of Wenge, that is why he had a good following in Africa. Since most of Fans do not understand Lingala, they always go for well arranged album. I was surprised to learn that Force D intervention Rapide was a success in Congo, the album was very poor arranged, Titanic was the best Album of that year.
So Pepe Felly Manuaku and Flamme Kapaya are also overrated ? Because they also didn't do anything nor joining a band.
Drummers like Meridjo and Champion Djikapela are also overrated because they had done nothing notable after leaving their bands ? So Nono Monzoloko and Ditutala is also overrated because he done nothing notable after Zaiko
*Alain Makaba participated to
Fula Ngenge and Bakala Dia Kuba of Papa Wemba and one of album of Deesse
Mukangi in 2002.
Alain Makaba dissapeared from the Congolese music-scene because he was very dissapointed and had lost the love he had with our music. In the same period he was married to the daugther of the late Omar Bongo who used to be president of Gabon at that time. Pepe Felly Manuaku for example (who is seen as the father of sebene) was in the same situation, until that Papa Wemba went to get him to participate in Pole Position and later on the Le Quatro+1 project. However he was not motivated anymore and felt that Congolese people weren't giving him the respect he deserved. He tried to settle in Angola, because he's parents are from there, but he felt as a foreigner there and came back to Kinshasa where he works nowadays in Socoda.
The circumstantes also count to the album. Your album can be of high quality, but still not being well received. We have seen it with Emeneya's album Everybody who was a huge flop, but only getting the respect it deserved when he passed away. In the period the critized Emeneya alot and said that he throw his rhythm in the streets and Wenge picked up. Comparing it to Kalayi Boeing who was a huge succes and who had those tribal guitar-sound in the main song, which the original Victoria Eleison used to have.
The moment when Titanic and Force d'Intervention Rapide got released, alot music-fans and press had sympathy for Werrason, who recorded Force d'Intervention Rapide in difficult conditions (The civil war started, the money devalued, rebels cut the hydroelectro-dam down which created alot problems in Kinshasa) and the public was already used with Wenge BCBG due to their names already being known and their concerts at Bataclan, Madeleine & Palais du Peuple, while Wenge Maison Mere was something new, the singers not known yet. Also JB Mpiana made some declarations in the press, which made many of his own fans turn their towards him and going to support Werrason and alot people hating him.
Thank you for clarification, it seems guitarists in Congo have a challenge when it comes to going solo, Diblo succeeded a bit with Matchatcha, although i doubt if he was well received in Congo as Paris based musician are not appreciated there. I still wonder what would Force D intervention rapid be if recorded in Paris. The songs were really good, the vocals top quality only the sound.
TBH everyone who isn't a singer have a challenge going solo in Congo, Atalakus, Guitarists, Bassists, Drummers, if you take the known Three top guys Koffi, Werra and JB they had many guitarists or drummer or Atalakus who had a better music taste or overall were better but since they weren't singers they hadn't aucceded
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Soukous-artists like Diblo Dibala, Kanda Bongo Man, Aurlus Mabele, Dr Sakis, Dany Engobo, etc. aren't really known in Kinshasa, they are mostly known by Congolese people who went Europe through West-Africa or who were once based there.Some in Kinshasa know them, but don't respect them, seeing them as comedians for the music they made (Congolese people back in those days didn't like easy lyrics, they used like poetic love songs or songs about life). In that era they used to see Soukous-artists who were shortly broadcoasted on tv by journalist Manda Tchebwa, like people who were send to kill our music.
They only know Nyboma Canta and Awilo Longomba which due to Nyboma being Kinshasa based before his soukous-career and being one of the topstars in Kinshasa back in the 70s, when having his band Lipua Lipua and Kamale. Awilo Longomba is known because of being Papa Wemba's drummer for a long time (getting often shot-outs in tracks recorded by Stino Mubi and Reddy Amisi) and later becoming a co-founder of rebel band "Nouvelle Generation de la Republique Democratique" which had huge succes with the song Porokondo and diss-track Monimambu against Wemba.
The only instrumentists to have succeed careers in Kinshasa are the Lutumba Simaro when replacing Luambo Makiadi as president after his death and 4 years later forming Bana OK after getting fired, Dr Nico when forming African Fiesta with Tabu Ley and a few years later having a long rivalery with the last one, which resulted in ethnic conflict in Kinshasa between Luba's and those coming from the Kwilu-province. Franco Luambo Makiadi who's seen as greatest musician ever in the Congolese music-history, who's the co-founder of TPOK Jazz, bringing multiple bands to Europe (Zaiko Langa Langa, Papa Wemba's Viva La Musica and others) and producing their albums on the same time. And of course saxophonist Verkcys Kiamuangana who formed his own band orchestre Veve (having the trio Madjesi as his singers) and also creating his own recordlabel Editions Veve, who produced artists of all generations.
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Some unpopular opinions
1) Dilu Dilumona and Papy Tex were better singers than Pepe Kalle but lacked the energy that Kalle had
2) Soki Vangu was a better Soki singer
3) Werrason made a big blunder allowing JB Mpiana to be president of Wenge Musica
4) Baby Ndombe should have been third or fourth star in the current age of Fally and Ferre.
5) Manda Chante never should have been a member of Wenge Musica original
6) Simaro should have never accepted Madilu to return to OK Jazz in 1990
7) Madilu should have created a band with Aime Kiwakana, Elba Kuluma, Dindo Yogo and Luciana Demingongo before going solo around 2 to 4 years later
8. Franco should have never brought back Kwamy into OK Jazz in 1970 and then Vicky would have left in 1974 instead of 1971.
9) Zaiko would have had less divisions if Pepe Felly had led Zaiko
10) Papa Wemba should gotten Koffi Olomide into Viva La Musica officially.
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7eme Lecon is better than Alerte Generale
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7eme Lecon is better than Alerte Generale
Damn this is wild
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7eme Lecon is better than Alerte Generale
Damn this is wild
it ain't just a little better its ALOT better
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7eme Lecon is better than Alerte Generale
Damn this is wild
it ain't just a little better its ALOT better
... Bro come on now, which parts are better? I mean Demukusse and Celeo really schooled Bill and Les Marquis yes 7eme Leçon is funnier with I'll throwing all those shots at Werra like "Miziki ya Koko Wana elalaaa ee" etc. But Alerte Generale was way better especially the transituin between Celeo and ROI David "Bana bakomi Mikolo, balingi ba finga Ya Ngiama..." Etc.
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7eme Lecon is better than Alerte Generale
Damn this is wild
it ain't just a little better its ALOT better
I totally agree
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7eme Lecon is better than Alerte Generale
Damn this is wild
it ain't just a little better its ALOT better
... Bro come on now, which parts are better? I mean Demukusse and Celeo really schooled Bill and Les Marquis yes 7eme Leçon is funnier with I'll throwing all those shots at Werra like "Miziki ya Koko Wana elalaaa ee" etc. But Alerte Generale was way better especially the transituin between Celeo and ROI David "Bana bakomi Mikolo, balingi ba finga Ya Ngiama..." Etc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MiGDLFj4ok
4:38 is fire as hell, 8:54, 9:55 this part right here is better than alerte generale and only bill Clinton can have a 11 minute generiuqe and all of it be fire meanwhile on alerte gnerale i get bored as hell 7 minutes in. let me make one thing clear its not a bad song its not better than 7eme lecon that's all.
They may have schooled him they ain't nowhere near as good as Bill that's a fact, have listened to Alerte Generale throughout the week and I dont get the hype at all sous sol is better techno malewa is better even Ligne 11 is a better generique, I don't know lingala so maybe that's the issue lol
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7eme Lecon is better than Alerte Generale
Damn this is wild
it ain't just a little better its ALOT better
... Bro come on now, which parts are better? I mean Demukusse and Celeo really schooled Bill and Les Marquis yes 7eme Leçon is funnier with I'll throwing all those shots at Werra like "Miziki ya Koko Wana elalaaa ee" etc. But Alerte Generale was way better especially the transituin between Celeo and ROI David "Bana bakomi Mikolo, balingi ba finga Ya Ngiama..." Etc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MiGDLFj4ok
4:38 is fire as hell, 8:54, 9:55 this part right here is better than alerte generale and only bill Clinton and have a 11 minute generiuqe and all of it be fire meanwhile on alerte gnerale i get bored as hell 7 minutes in. let me make one thing clear its not a bad song its not better than 7eme lecon that's all.
They may have schooled him they ain't nowhere near as good as Bill that's a fact, have listened to Alerte Generale throughout the week and I dont get the hype at all sous sol is better techno malewa is better even Ligne 11 is a better generique, I don't know lingala so maybe that's the issue lol
First you say Voodoo is much better than Sanction and Viagra, then you say Detresse isn’t that good of a song, then you say Ekokota isn’t that good of an Atalaku and now you’re saying 7eme Lecon, Sous Sol and Ligne II are better than Alerte Générale. Ehhh nzambe I’m honestly terrified with what you’re gonna come out with next.
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7eme Lecon is better than Alerte Generale
Damn this is wild
it ain't just a little better its ALOT better
... Bro come on now, which parts are better? I mean Demukusse and Celeo really schooled Bill and Les Marquis yes 7eme Leçon is funnier with I'll throwing all those shots at Werra like "Miziki ya Koko Wana elalaaa ee" etc. But Alerte Generale was way better especially the transituin between Celeo and ROI David "Bana bakomi Mikolo, balingi ba finga Ya Ngiama..." Etc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MiGDLFj4ok
4:38 is fire as hell, 8:54, 9:55 this part right here is better than alerte generale and only bill Clinton and have a 11 minute generiuqe and all of it be fire meanwhile on alerte gnerale i get bored as hell 7 minutes in. let me make one thing clear its not a bad song its not better than 7eme lecon that's all.
They may have schooled him they ain't nowhere near as good as Bill that's a fact, have listened to Alerte Generale throughout the week and I dont get the hype at all sous sol is better techno malewa is better even Ligne 11 is a better generique, I don't know lingala so maybe that's the issue lol
First you say Voodoo is much better than Sanction and Viagra, then you say Detresse isn’t that good of a song, then you say Ekokota isn’t that good of an Atalaku and now you’re saying 7eme Lecon, Sous Sol and Ligne II are better than Alerte Générale. Ehhh nzambe I’m honestly terrified with what you’re gonna come out with next.
well stick around I probably got some more hot takes lol
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7eme Lecon is better than Alerte Generale
Damn this is wild
it ain't just a little better its ALOT better
... Bro come on now, which parts are better? I mean Demukusse and Celeo really schooled Bill and Les Marquis yes 7eme Leçon is funnier with I'll throwing all those shots at Werra like "Miziki ya Koko Wana elalaaa ee" etc. But Alerte Generale was way better especially the transituin between Celeo and ROI David "Bana bakomi Mikolo, balingi ba finga Ya Ngiama..." Etc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MiGDLFj4ok
4:38 is fire as hell, 8:54, 9:55 this part right here is better than alerte generale and only bill Clinton and have a 11 minute generiuqe and all of it be fire meanwhile on alerte gnerale i get bored as hell 7 minutes in. let me make one thing clear its not a bad song its not better than 7eme lecon that's all.
They may have schooled him they ain't nowhere near as good as Bill that's a fact, have listened to Alerte Generale throughout the week and I dont get the hype at all sous sol is better techno malewa is better even Ligne 11 is a better generique, I don't know lingala so maybe that's the issue lol
First you say Voodoo is much better than Sanction and Viagra, then you say Detresse isn’t that good of a song, then you say Ekokota isn’t that good of an Atalaku and now you’re saying 7eme Lecon, Sous Sol and Ligne II are better than Alerte Générale. Ehhh nzambe I’m honestly terrified with what you’re gonna come out with next.
Loooooool some of these takes are soo crazy my gosh
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Werrason should have been the leader of Wenge Musica instead of JB Mpiana since he was the co-founder of this movement. I will always wonder why Werrason never fought hard to be the leader of Wenge Musica.
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Ultimatum is better than Magie by a slight margin
-
7eme Lecon is better than Alerte Generale
Damn this is wild
it ain't just a little better its ALOT better
... Bro come on now, which parts are better? I mean Demukusse and Celeo really schooled Bill and Les Marquis yes 7eme Leçon is funnier with I'll throwing all those shots at Werra like "Miziki ya Koko Wana elalaaa ee" etc. But Alerte Generale was way better especially the transituin between Celeo and ROI David "Bana bakomi Mikolo, balingi ba finga Ya Ngiama..." Etc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MiGDLFj4ok
4:38 is fire as hell, 8:54, 9:55 this part right here is better than alerte generale and only bill Clinton and have a 11 minute generiuqe and all of it be fire meanwhile on alerte gnerale i get bored as hell 7 minutes in. let me make one thing clear its not a bad song its not better than 7eme lecon that's all.
They may have schooled him they ain't nowhere near as good as Bill that's a fact, have listened to Alerte Generale throughout the week and I dont get the hype at all sous sol is better techno malewa is better even Ligne 11 is a better generique, I don't know lingala so maybe that's the issue lol
First you say Voodoo is much better than Sanction and Viagra, then you say Detresse isn’t that good of a song, then you say Ekokota isn’t that good of an Atalaku and now you’re saying 7eme Lecon, Sous Sol and Ligne II are better than Alerte Générale. Ehhh nzambe I’m honestly terrified with what you’re gonna come out with next.
Loooool oh my lord at these takes, the world has gone mad surely.
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Mboshi & Somono were better in Academia than in Quartier Latin
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Werrason should have been the leader of Wenge Musica instead of JB Mpiana since he was the co-founder of this movement. I will always wonder why Werrason never fought hard to be the leader of Wenge Musica.
He wanted to control how the cake (finance) is shared. So he probably cared less about ki presida (until later) and well JB is more charismatic between the two of them so its only natural that he was chosen as the face of the group. Similarly even at the separation it was only natural that JB still continued as the face of the newly formed BCBG group because non of the others would have carried the group forward.
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Wenge maison mere & wenge bcbg (post pantagone) >>>> wenge bcbg 4*4 tout terrain
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Wenge maison mere & wenge bcbg (post pantagone) >>>> wenge bcbg 4*4 tout terrain
Lol no BCBG has not produce anything who surpassed the BCBG 4*4 tout terrain, about Maison Mère maybe just Kibuisa and Solola but even there it is a tie not a win for post Wenge BCBG groups, I mean Is Soyons Sérieux better then Kin e Bouger ? Djino, Heritier Itele etc.?
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Sens Inverse is a filler that should've been left of the album
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Sens Inverse is a filler that should've been left of the album
Okay please stop ;D
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J Trois was the best singer of Wenge Maison Mere during the 2004 to 2007 period.
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J Trois was the best singer of Wenge Maison Mere during the 2004 to 2007 period.
Ahahahahah Oh My Goooooooooooood
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Sens Inverse is a filler that should've been left of the album
Okay please stop ;D
its the truth tho
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J Trois was the best singer of Wenge Maison Mere during the 2004 to 2007 period.
Ahahahahah Oh My Goooooooooooood
Who was the best Maison Mere singer according to you then?
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Sens Inverse is a filler that should've been left of the album
Okay please stop ;D
its the truth tho
No no no it's not. Sens Inverse was one of the biggest hits from Droit De Veto and its a party/wedding classic so you obviously don't get it.
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No rumba on sanction is better than Jules BM
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J Trois was the best singer of Wenge Maison Mere during the 2004 to 2007 period.
Ahahahahah Oh My Goooooooooooood
Who was the best Maison Mere singer according to you then?
Bon Bon, Miel, Kojack, Adjani, there are plenty
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Attentat is more like a filler album.
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Werrason cant sing and Blandine would've been a better record without him
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Werrason cant sing and Blandine would've been a better record without him
Most people agree with you. It is only Werra superfanatics who don't want to hear that. Werrason can sing but he is not the best. He needs to stop trying to be like JB Mpiana, it will not hold.
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7eme Lecon is better than Alerte Generale
Damn this is wild
it ain't just a little better its ALOT better
... Bro come on now, which parts are better? I mean Demukusse and Celeo really schooled Bill and Les Marquis yes 7eme Leçon is funnier with I'll throwing all those shots at Werra like "Miziki ya Koko Wana elalaaa ee" etc. But Alerte Generale was way better especially the transituin between Celeo and ROI David "Bana bakomi Mikolo, balingi ba finga Ya Ngiama..." Etc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MiGDLFj4ok
4:38 is fire as hell, 8:54, 9:55 this part right here is better than alerte generale and only bill Clinton and have a 11 minute generiuqe and all of it be fire meanwhile on alerte gnerale i get bored as hell 7 minutes in. let me make one thing clear its not a bad song its not better than 7eme lecon that's all.
They may have schooled him they ain't nowhere near as good as Bill that's a fact, have listened to Alerte Generale throughout the week and I dont get the hype at all sous sol is better techno malewa is better even Ligne 11 is a better generique, I don't know lingala so maybe that's the issue lol
First you say Voodoo is much better than Sanction and Viagra, then you say Detresse isn’t that good of a song, then you say Ekokota isn’t that good of an Atalaku and now you’re saying 7eme Lecon, Sous Sol and Ligne II are better than Alerte Générale. Ehhh nzambe I’m honestly terrified with what you’re gonna come out with next.
Instrumental wise I would say that Alerte is better but overall because of of bill and dancing 7e Lecon is a better overall generique. There’s no way you think Alerte is better then Sous Sol. In my opinion Ligne 11 was a good track because of the cries but the arrangement was terrible.
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Another hot take is Flamme was on a completely different level from 2004-2007. Simply unmatched.
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His prime for sure, people are still stuck on Kibuisa while he entered his best form from Alerte Générale
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Micko is better than Loi
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JB Mpiana and Werrason should have done a duet album after Feux D'Amour.
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Micko is better than Loi
Micko is better than Loi but everyone dances to Loi instead of Micko and not to mention it was Loi that put Ndombolo on the map
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Criticism
Congolese music hasn't had prestige since 2004. This is due to the late Tabu Ley's critic of Koffi. Unfortunately, this has dethroned the genre of Rhumba (Nkumba).
Congolese musicians should take caution of their mental health before going on stage. We have seen a lot of talented musicians of OK Jazz, Afrisa, Zaiko pass through numerous illnesses. Ya Chiro, Matima, Pompon Kuleta, Pepe Kalle, etc.
Polemic is fucking hilarious. Mon lingala eza petit. However, drama is futile. Competition is engaging and stimulates the creativity of musicians. Just look at Wenge Vs Koffi.
Most soloists are imitating Kapaya instead of discovering their own sound. Innovation is lacking. Creativity is lacking. Lack of catchy solo riffs are lacking. Listen to Nene Tchakou, Ya Luambo, Mboka Liya, Dally Kimoko, Bongo Wende just to name a few, they have memorable riffs. Bongo Wende is one of the special cases because he was inspired by Jimi Hendrix. Michelino was inspired by AA Jazz guitarists, noted on his Facebook.
The 1970s was the most creative era. Why? Because many bands were being created at once. Verckys were promoting like hot cakes mdrrr.
Lack of promotion. Musicians need to hire promoters that are consistent, charismatic, and focused. Congolese Music always had international potential: Afro Cuban Era, Cavacha, Dance era, Ndombolo, etc. It just lacks the proper promotion to take it further.
Sebenes aren't exciting as they used to be. The sebenes from the 1950s towards the early 2000s had a lot of fervor, passion, and rawness!!!!
Every artist wants to be a solo artist. Not everyone can be a solo artist. Luckily, Fally and Ferre had a stable promoter and took off.
The Afro Latin era produced some of the most simple and rich Congolese music. Listen to the works of the 1960s and '50s.
Bavon Marie Marie was on the road to being a superstar. Sad, he died so early. Michelino took his style.
Aurlus Mabele was the Likolo of Soukous. Toujours Likolo. He was actually a band leader in the 70's. Fronting a orchestra called "Ndimbola Lokole". His energy was unmatched. Plus, Aurlus played percussion. RIP
Congolese musicians should tour a LOT in Latin America and Asia. Why? Cause most Bantu descendants of the Kongo Empire (Congo, Angola, Gabon) were exported to Latin America (Cuba, Colombia, Argentina, Brasil). For instance, Tango comes from the Kikongo word - N'tangu. Merengue of DR is Angolan. Rhumba is Nkumba (dancing by the waist).
Franco was the greatest musician coming from Congo. Meaning he put his heart and soul into his passion.
Most Congolese people haven't known that Congolese music has been produced in East Africa and West Africa. Samba Mapangala, Les Mangelepa, Super Mazemba just to name a few aren't well known in Kinshasa. However, the music is delicious and arranged properly. Maybe because in East Africa, Swahili is king. While in Kin, Lingala is widely spoken. My sister-in-law told me this. However, there is more to Lingala and these languages should be promoted.
Vocalist Pompon Kuleta should've capitalized from the Soukous Vibration compilation in the '90s. His vocals played a major role due to producer Ouattara Mamouni. If Ouattara is still alive, I hope we can get an interview of him promoting a lot of Congolese musicians and also making Pompon Kuleta a superstar. Same with an interview of Geo Bilongo, Dr. Sakis ( ;D)
Apart from Dr. Nico, Papa Noel "Ya Nono" is the greatest rumba guitarist. Pay attention to his fingers.
Lokassa Ya M'Bongo is one of the greatest rhythm guitarists Africa has produced. However, Dechaud (Nico brother) pioneered the mi-composed. But the first to play was Jhimmy Zakari of Central African Republic!
https://maziki.fr/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/jimmy2.jpg
I long for the legacy of Zaiko.
Once Nyoka Longo is no more, who will continue the legacy? Lola Muana? Notice how Tabu Ley was gone Dino Vangu decided to reprise Afrisa in Europe. In the US, there was a mini-reunion with Huit Kilos, Dodo Munoko (RIP), Wawali Bonane but unfortunately, the death of Dodo Munoko was a huge blow.
Ageism suffers from generation vs generation. Does the youth even know musicians of the yesteryear? Do they even listen to the music of yesteryear? They may say it's old, but yet our parents are old, but we still listen to them ;D ;D ;D
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Quartier Latin was like the early 90s Chicago bulls of Congolese music in that same time period. Koffi was like Jordan and Suzuki was like Scottie Pippen in the early days very underrated duo the roster got better after that of course Willy Bula, Babia, Modogo etc
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I thought since we sort of know where members stand with which artists/groups and music time periods we like, it’d be interesting to know opinions you have that aren’t of popular opinion. I think alternative viewpoints can make for interesting discussions/debates.
- I think Evoloko Lay Lay was the worst leader/singer. I was a big fan of his dances like “Dallas” way back in the day, but his singing voice always seemed to be a cheap version of Wemba’s. In some songs his voice sounds like a whining child. He is good on chorus though.
I thought i was the only one who thought Evoloko's singing is difficult to digest.
My Unpopular Opinions:
1) Lita Bembo
I never understood why people liked him so much. To me he was just too over-the-top and animated, the precursor to Adolphe Dominguez. Franco produced a Stukas record for his record label, so maybe he saw something in him that I still cannot see.
2) Tabu Ley was a selfish bandleader
Meeting him and spending a whole entire day with him was probably one of the greatest moments of my childhood, but the way he compensated his people in Afrisa was deplorable. You think Werra was bad, try shipping your whole band to the US, don't pay them and then abandon them, leaving them to fend for themselves.
3) Not Enough Sebenes
With the successes of Fabregas, Robinio, Heritier and others, it looks as if Congolese music is making a huge comeback, one we haven't seen since Fally & Ferre left Quartier Latin for solo careers. But here again comes the age old debate: Where are the Sebenes? What was once popular and literally took the music all over the world, is still absent from a lot of today's rumbas and if there's one, it's cut too short. Generiques aren't enough. Non-Lingala speakers, especially white people, don't understand rhumba music. They want to dance to the guitars and that was these guys' tickets to Europe. These artists just can't seem to grasp that.
4) Vulgarity/Sex Appeal
Nearly 20 years ago, my grandfather from Matete, watched a WWE show with me during the Attitude Era while he was here in the States. While watching the divas in lingerie prancing around in the ring, he said, "If women did that in Congo, they'll be in jail." Fast forward nearly 20 years later and we're seeing and hearing more sexual innuendos than before. When I was in Kinshasa in 2010, Ferre's 3eme Droight and JB's Mpunda was blazing the airwaves and the night clubs. Although still popular, a lot of church goers found those songs to be improper. Now female dancers are twerking in videos and song-writers are finding more clever ways to sing about vagina. The music is no longer for kids.
5) Mabanga
I've complained about this subject numerous times over the years and I'm tired of talking about it.
In regards to my last bullet points, maybe I'm just an old fashioned 35 year old.
Man #3 is huge here. We need sebenes. Just the other day someone heard me blast Thshitokoo from Wenge Tonya Tonya in my car. They were dancing a bit. Congolese has a chance to be very successful in the USA if they at least make an effort. But sebenes are needed and short rumbas.
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Ali Deb's is the greatest rumba song ever
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Kester Emeneya should have sung with Koffi Olomide and Papa Wemba on the follow Wake Up song Zaintoin.
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Power Kosa Leka is fallys best album by far
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No, Droit Chemin is the best Fally album.
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Felix Wazekwa should have stuck to being a songwriter
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Hot take - Fally could've sung better Mayday for the hype it gets in my opinion. Imagine if he sang it with his QL/Droit Chemin voice… it’d be on another level. He does more justice to it singing live though