Congo Vibes
Music => Congolese Music => Topic started by: BrazzaBoy on November 28, 2018, 16:43
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Ndekos I have something thats been on my mind for a while. Without any objectivity and with just looking at the songs for what they were do you think Wenge Musica 4x4 was overrated in hindsight? Only reason I ask is because from 1990 until 1996 they did a lot of work but to this day those songs dont get played much at parties or get togethers. During that period Pepe Kalle, Papa Wemba, Koffi Olomide, Defao were much less popular but to this day I still hear people play their songs from that era, be it in the car or at a party during the slow jams or even dancing to the sebenes.
I think personally Wenge revolutioned the sebene department but as far as the songs themselves I cant think of any song during 1990-96 that I can play at any wedding, am I bugging ndekos? Or do you guys agree in hindsight.
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I'm sorry but my comment my upset some people but wenge is a bit overrated every where especially on this forum give wenge too much credit for my liking. Don't get me wrong I'm a fan of wenge but there's just some things I find exaggerated, for example why does it feel like nearly all musicians especially young ones always feel the need to say they were influenced by clan wenge.. but never QL, viva, Victoria... or atalakus always give praise to tutu or bill?
Wenge was hot but I find that they sometimes clan wenge get a bit too much credit on some stuff to the point that I fear in 20/30 years from now people might start saying wenge invented Congolese music and so on lol
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Ndekos I have something thats been on my mind for a while. Without any objectivity and with just looking at the songs for what they were do you think Wenge Musica 4x4 was overrated in hindsight? Only reason I ask is because from 1990 until 1996 they did a lot of work but to this day those songs dont get played much at parties or get togethers. During that period Pepe Kalle, Papa Wemba, Koffi Olomide, Defao were much less popular but to this day I still hear people play their songs from that era, be it in the car or at a party during the slow jams or even dancing to the sebenes.
I think personally Wenge revolutioned the sebene department but as far as the songs themselves I cant think of any song during 1990-96 that I can play at any wedding, am I bugging ndekos? Or do you guys agree in hindsight.
It depends of what generation the dj or the people or marrying are. I know alot of weddings and parties where Pentagone is played. If the party/wedding is of someone born in 60's or 70 then it's 100% that Pentagone, Kin E Bouge, Kalayi Boeing, Feux de L'Amour and Ndombolo ya Solo will be played and sometimes also Princesse Pathy and Kaskin. If you go to a wedding of someone born in the 50's and 60's then it's 100% sure that Proclamation, Coup des Sifflet, Matebu, M.J. Ngoy, Libala and Rendez Vous will be played, because they are in the most cases Viva-fans or sometimes Zaiko.
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Wenge brouggt to Congolese music something that Americans call HYPE, simple as that, the only song that can stay in Wenge history well, maybe Nicky d? But for others are good songs with great arrangments, but if we check Werra most of his songs on solo are rewriting of Franco's songs, especially on 7 Jours, JB is basically making the same style.but modernized of Zaiko, and Ferre, Fabregas, and other Wenge alumni are always using songwriter and chasing guys of past era lacking originality, Fally too even though he is not Wenge, Ferre is a new version of Carlito, Fabregas a mixture of Koffi and Mabele Elisi while Heritier still have to find his style, I think that after the Wenge era, especially the BillCeleo duo, musicians just saw music as a quick way to make music without thinking about leaving a legacy or making something historical, guys like Koffi, Papa Wemba, Madilu System, Franco it is rare to see them again in this modern era
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I'm sorry but my comment my upset some people but wenge is a bit overrated every where especially on this forum give wenge too much credit for my liking. Don't get me wrong I'm a fan of wenge but there's just some things I find exaggerated, for example why does it feel like nearly all musicians especially young ones always feel the need to say they were influenced by clan wenge.. but never QL, viva, Victoria... or atalakus always give praise to tutu or bill?
Wenge was hot but I find that they sometimes clan wenge get a bit too much credit on some stuff to the point that I fear in 20/30 years from now people might start saying wenge invented Congolese music and so on lol
That's because the musicians of the 5th generation are all born in the 70s so its normal they will credit everything to Wenge 4x4. The same for the guys who were born in 80's who see Werrason and the musicians of Maison Mere as their heros (Ferre, Flamme, Kakol & Bill). The generation who saw Victoria Eleison and Viva La Musica are those who were born in the 60's. All bands of Wenge 4x4's generation used to copy Victoria and Viva and dreaming to be like Papa Wemba or Kester Emeneya. Before Mulolo, Werrason used to copy Emeneya's voice. Those born in 50's see Thu Zahina, Evoloko Lay, Gina Efonge and Tabu Ley as their rolmodels and the most people who are born in the 90s see Fally Ipupa as their hero.
Most musicians who ended up in Wenge Maison Mere, Victoria Eleison, Nouvelle Ecriture and Quartier Latin after 1997 used to be Wenge 4x4-fans who had their own streetbands. The leaders of those bands started to copy the Wenge-style instead of continuing with their own music-style, so it's normal that people will then credit everything to Wenge 4x4. the original style of Viva La Musica (1977-1999), so different then that when Alpatchino came. The same with that of Victoria Eleison (1982-1997) before starting Dream Team, Dream Band.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GjZNF7Bv4w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zN85kA4SX7I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6WgFQcXBjQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAoIjXLvDrQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DkxybqsBaY
that's a big difference if you compare it to Fula Ngenge, St Jean Mbelekete or Mazangi.
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Wenge brouggt to Congolese music something that Americans call HYPE, simple as that, the only song that can stay in Wenge history well, maybe Nicky d? But for others are good songs with great arrangments, but if we check Werra most of his songs on solo are rewriting of Franco's songs, especially on 7 Jours, JB is basically making the same style.but modernized of Zaiko, and Ferre, Fabregas, and other Wenge alumni are always using songwriter and chasing guys of past era lacking originality, Fally too even though he is not Wenge, Ferre is a new version of Carlito, Fabregas a mixture of Koffi and Mabele Elisi while Heritier still have to find his style, I think that after the Wenge era, especially the BillCeleo duo, musicians just saw music as a quick way to make music without thinking about leaving a legacy or making something historical, guys like Koffi, Papa Wemba, Madilu System, Franco it is rare to see them again in this modern era
Hahaha that's not true. Wenge 4x4 have many songs who will stay in the history. Mulolo, Kin E Bouge, Voyage, Mon Ami Coboss, Kalayi Boeing, Coco Madimba, Surprise Kapangala, La Verite and Daddet Autant.
Legends of the 3th generation all used songswriters. Many songs of King Kester Emeneya came from Kikwit. Papa Wemba is known as an arists who never really wrote a song and he wasn't ashamed about it. The same thing for Grand Kalle who was always using songwriters (one of them was Tabu Ley). Alot songs Tabu Ley recorded in the time when he was a solo artists weren't even his. He was also using songswriters. People started discovering that the artists of Wenge 4x4 when Felix Wazekwa came out with then all ghostwriters also wanting to start a solo-career and succeed like Koffi Olomide (who just started beefing with Papa Wemba from 1993, saying that Wemba has to thank him for his solo-carreer after having written 90% of his songs in the 70s). The first artist to do that was Pascal Poba. If that thing happened in 70s with Tabu Ley and co then it would be a scandal.
Reddy Amisi who's seen as the best songwriter ever has songs who were orginally written by Viva-guitarist Ping Pong Tshamala (R.I.P.), Lidjo Kwempa and musicians coming from Kikwit. But he's lucky that people coming from Bandundu have not the same mentality like those of Kinshasa. Reddy Amisi himself gave his elders Koffi Olomide and Papa Wemba some songs who were written by himself.
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Wenge brouggt to Congolese music something that Americans call HYPE, simple as that, the only song that can stay in Wenge history well, maybe Nicky d? But for others are good songs with great arrangments, but if we check Werra most of his songs on solo are rewriting of Franco's songs, especially on 7 Jours, JB is basically making the same style.but modernized of Zaiko, and Ferre, Fabregas, and other Wenge alumni are always using songwriter and chasing guys of past era lacking originality, Fally too even though he is not Wenge, Ferre is a new version of Carlito, Fabregas a mixture of Koffi and Mabele Elisi while Heritier still have to find his style, I think that after the Wenge era, especially the BillCeleo duo, musicians just saw music as a quick way to make music without thinking about leaving a legacy or making something historical, guys like Koffi, Papa Wemba, Madilu System, Franco it is rare to see them again in this modern era
Hahaha that's not true. Wenge 4x4 have many songs who will stay in the history. Mulolo, Kin E Bouge, Voyage, Mon Ami Coboss, Kalayi Boeing, Coco Madimba, Surprise Kapangala, La Verite and Daddet Autant.
Legends of the 3th generation all used songswriters. Many songs of King Kester Emeneya came from Kikwit. Papa Wemba is known as an arists who never really wrote a song and he wasn't ashamed about it. The same thing for Grand Kalle who was always using songwriters (one of them was Tabu Ley). Alot songs Tabu Ley recorded in the time when he was a solo artists weren't even his. He was also using songswriters. People started discovering that the artists of Wenge 4x4 when Felix Wazekwa came out with then all ghostwriters also wanting to start a solo-career and succeed like Koffi Olomide (who just started beefing with Papa Wemba from 1993, saying that Wemba has to thank him for his solo-carreer after having written 90% of his songs in the 70s). The first artist to do that was Pascal Poba. If that thing happened in 70s with Tabu Ley and co then it would be a scandal.
Reddy Amisi who's seen as the best songwriter ever has songs who were orginally written by Viva-guitarist Ping Pong Tshamala (R.I.P.), Lidjo Kwempa and musicians coming from Kikwit. But he's lucky that people coming from Bandundu have not the same mentality like those of Kinshasa. Reddy Amisi himself gave his elders Koffi Olomide and Papa Wemba some songs who were written by himself.
Off topic, Ping Pong passed away since when he was a good rhythm? :(
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Wenge brouggt to Congolese music something that Americans call HYPE, simple as that, the only song that can stay in Wenge history well, maybe Nicky d? But for others are good songs with great arrangments, but if we check Werra most of his songs on solo are rewriting of Franco's songs, especially on 7 Jours, JB is basically making the same style.but modernized of Zaiko, and Ferre, Fabregas, and other Wenge alumni are always using songwriter and chasing guys of past era lacking originality, Fally too even though he is not Wenge, Ferre is a new version of Carlito, Fabregas a mixture of Koffi and Mabele Elisi while Heritier still have to find his style, I think that after the Wenge era, especially the BillCeleo duo, musicians just saw music as a quick way to make music without thinking about leaving a legacy or making something historical, guys like Koffi, Papa Wemba, Madilu System, Franco it is rare to see them again in this modern era
Hahaha that's not true. Wenge 4x4 have many songs who will stay in the history. Mulolo, Kin E Bouge, Voyage, Mon Ami Coboss, Kalayi Boeing, Coco Madimba, Surprise Kapangala, La Verite and Daddet Autant.
Legends of the 3th generation all used songswriters. Many songs of King Kester Emeneya came from Kikwit. Papa Wemba is known as an arists who never really wrote a song and he wasn't ashamed about it. The same thing for Grand Kalle who was always using songwriters (one of them was Tabu Ley). Alot songs Tabu Ley recorded in the time when he was a solo artists weren't even his. He was also using songswriters. People started discovering that the artists of Wenge 4x4 when Felix Wazekwa came out with then all ghostwriters also wanting to start a solo-career and succeed like Koffi Olomide (who just started beefing with Papa Wemba from 1993, saying that Wemba has to thank him for his solo-carreer after having written 90% of his songs in the 70s). The first artist to do that was Pascal Poba. If that thing happened in 70s with Tabu Ley and co then it would be a scandal.
Reddy Amisi who's seen as the best songwriter ever has songs who were orginally written by Viva-guitarist Ping Pong Tshamala (R.I.P.), Lidjo Kwempa and musicians coming from Kikwit. But he's lucky that people coming from Bandundu have not the same mentality like those of Kinshasa. Reddy Amisi himself gave his elders Koffi Olomide and Papa Wemba some songs who were written by himself.
Off topic, Ping Pong passed away since when he was a good rhythm? :(
I don't remember which year but its more than 15 years. He used to be one of my favorite rhythm guitarists. For me, he and Tofla Kitoko were the best rhythm-players of the 80's. His songs Amour Fou, Bakwetu and Cherie Alpha were excellent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxWKbmiryfY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOsyKA-9NGw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5Tqizbwtis
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Damn I liked the live version of cherie alpha in 1997 rest in peace.
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I'm sorry but my comment my upset some people but wenge is a bit overrated every where especially on this forum give wenge too much credit for my liking. Don't get me wrong I'm a fan of wenge but there's just some things I find exaggerated, for example why does it feel like nearly all musicians especially young ones always feel the need to say they were influenced by clan wenge.. but never QL, viva, Victoria... or atalakus always give praise to tutu or bill?
Wenge was hot but I find that they sometimes clan wenge get a bit too much credit on some stuff to the point that I fear in 20/30 years from now people might start saying wenge invented Congolese music and so on lol
That's because the musicians of the 5th generation are all born in the 70s so its normal they will credit everything to Wenge 4x4. The same for the guys who were born in 80's who see Werrason and the musicians of Maison Mere as their heros (Ferre, Flamme, Kakol & Bill). The generation who saw Victoria Eleison and Viva La Musica are those who were born in the 60's. All bands of Wenge 4x4's generation used to copy Victoria and Viva and dreaming to be like Papa Wemba or Kester Emeneya. Before Mulolo, Werrason used to copy Emeneya's voice. Those born in 50's see Thu Zahina, Evoloko Lay, Gina Efonge and Tabu Ley as their rolmodels and the most people who are born in the 90s see Fally Ipupa as their hero.
Most musicians who ended up in Wenge Maison Mere, Victoria Eleison, Nouvelle Ecriture and Quartier Latin after 1997 used to be Wenge 4x4-fans who had their own streetbands. The leaders of those bands started to copy the Wenge-style instead of continuing with their own music-style, so it's normal that people will then credit everything to Wenge 4x4. the original style of Viva La Musica (1977-1999), so different then that when Alpatchino came. The same with that of Victoria Eleison (1982-1997) before starting Dream Team, Dream Band.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GjZNF7Bv4w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zN85kA4SX7I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6WgFQcXBjQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAoIjXLvDrQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DkxybqsBaY
that's a big difference if you compare it to Fula Ngenge, St Jean Mbelekete or Mazangi.
That makes a lot of sense. You kind of answered my question. I completely agree. The fact that Werrason ended up making such a big impact later on in his career is most likely the reason why we still hang on to the Wenge 4x4 era so much.
And thats actually something I was going to add on I was going to say I hear more people playing Wenge MM or Wenge BCBG songs than people playing Wenge 4x4 songs at events. And I know age has a lot to do with it but still I have yet to hear songs from the earlier era being played, it just does not happen. Maybe Pentagone every once in a blue moon but not often. For an era that is supposed to have so many classics you would think people would still hang on to those songs, but instead people play old koffi, old wemba, pepe kalle and the likes. But yes with Wenge MM being the uncontested Number 1s for almost 20 years straight it would make sense that we still see the 4x4 days as classic days.
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When do you think we'll see the next wave of groups independent from Wenge and Koffi (Quartier Latin is technically no more since Danger de Mort)?
Unlike previous generations of the Wemba, Kester, and Kalle...you don't see Fally or Ferre really embrassing the youthful artist like their former leaders or older musicians.
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I'm surprised that Papa Wemba never wrote a song.
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Ndekos I have something thats been on my mind for a while. Without any objectivity and with just looking at the songs for what they were do you think Wenge Musica 4x4 was overrated in hindsight? Only reason I ask is because from 1990 until 1996 they did a lot of work but to this day those songs dont get played much at parties or get togethers. During that period Pepe Kalle, Papa Wemba, Koffi Olomide, Defao were much less popular but to this day I still hear people play their songs from that era, be it in the car or at a party during the slow jams or even dancing to the sebenes.
I think personally Wenge revolutioned the sebene department but as far as the songs themselves I cant think of any song during 1990-96 that I can play at any wedding, am I bugging ndekos? Or do you guys agree in hindsight.
I suppose it all depends on who you hang out with. From my observations, as a part time DJ I noticed that the 40-45 year olds love the Wenge 4x4 generation in all it's forms, the late 40s to early 50s like the Zaiko generation in all their different forms, then the mid 50 upwards like Franco & Tabu Ley et al & others of that generation........The 40 and below are into the Fally generation......Koffi however, transcends all generations.
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When do you think we'll see the next wave of groups independent from Wenge and Koffi (Quartier Latin is technically no more since Danger de Mort)?
Unlike previous generations of the Wemba, Kester, and Kalle...you don't see Fally or Ferre really embrassing the youthful artist like their former leaders or older musicians.
At the moment there are no big groups that stand out beside the Wenge Clan, Most of the top musicians today are really solo acts (Ferre/Fally/Heritier) from that generation.
There will come a new crop of musicians that will bring something totally new and disrupt the current situation, taking the music to a new level. That will happen, but as of now most of the big acts are from the Clan Wenge, or offshoots of the Wenge style.
If you look back, Zaiko brought a new faster style to compete with the slower tempo of TPOK and Tabu Ley which was ruling the 60's and 70's, then the (mostly) solo stars from Zaiko( Papa Wemba, Evoloko, Bozi) went on to form their own groups and for a while there was nothing new.
Wenge 4X4 Was a breath of fresh air to disrupt the 4th Generation, and we are now experiencing the plateau. We are almost ripe for a new generation to come and disrupt with innovation to a new level.
That is why Congolese music is forever strong, because there is always a new generation ready to innovate and disrupt the older one, regenerating the music and keeping it alive.
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When do you think we'll see the next wave of groups independent from Wenge and Koffi (Quartier Latin is technically no more since Danger de Mort)?
Unlike previous generations of the Wemba, Kester, and Kalle...you don't see Fally or Ferre really embrassing the youthful artist like their former leaders or older musicians.
At the moment there are no big groups that stand out beside the Wenge Clan, Most of the top musicians today are really solo acts (Ferre/Fally/Heritier) from that generation.
There will come a new crop of musicians that will bring something totally new and disrupt the current situation, taking the music to a new level. That will happen, but as of now most of the big acts are from the Clan Wenge, or offshoots of the Wenge style.
If you look back, Zaiko brought a new faster style to compete with the slower tempo of TPOK and Tabu Ley which was ruling the 60's and 70's, then the (mostly) solo stars from Zaiko( Papa Wemba, Evoloko, Bozi) went on to form their own groups and for a while there was nothing new.
Wenge 4X4 Was a breath of fresh air to disrupt the 4th Generation, and we are now experiencing the plateau. We are almost ripe for a new generation to come and disrupt with innovation to a new level.
That is why Congolese music is forever strong, because there is always a new generation ready to innovate and disrupt the older one, regenerating the music and keeping it alive.
I disagree I think we’re near the end. Because at the time when we went from Ok to Zaiko and then Zaikos to Wenge Congo was the number 1 country in african music and by faaaaaar. Now its so much going on that I dont see any new artist coming out of congo for a long time. Nigeria is setting the tone now and they’re not letting up.
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Clan Zaiko and Clan Wenge are similar in a sense where they made great music and they had a sense of making inpactful songs. They had a sense of power in their hands.
But the issue is that Clan Wenge is very divided contrary to Clan Zaiko. Clan Zaiko had conflicts but they managed to keep it down except with Koffi Olomide and Papa Wemba but the conflicts were mostly managed well compare to Clan Wenge. As I indicated before, Wenge BCBG 4x4 will be unlikely because Adolphe Dominguez, Alain Makaba, Blaise Bula, Didier Masela, JB Mpiana and Werrason not all together. Didier and Werra don't care for one another as well Blaise Bula and he does not care for JB that much. As I said, Blaise Bula is a coldfish while JB has a egoistic attitude while Werra appears more thuggish in my view and Didier just does not care about many of the Wenge people especially Werrason with Alain Makaba wanting to stay in his corner. Only Adolphe gets along with everyone but it will tough for a Clan Wenge reunion as long as the other big names still resent each other in a deep manner.
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Clan Zaiko and Clan Wenge are similar in a sense where they made great music and they had a sense of making inpactful songs. They had a sense of power in their hands.
But the issue is that Clan Wenge is very divided contrary to Clan Zaiko. Clan Zaiko had conflicts but they managed to keep it down except with Koffi Olomide and Papa Wemba but the conflicts were mostly managed well compare to Clan Wenge. As I indicated before, Wenge BCBG 4x4 will be unlikely because Adolphe Dominguez, Alain Makaba, Blaise Bula, Didier Masela, JB Mpiana and Werrason not all together. Didier and Werra don't care for one another as well Blaise Bula and he does not care for JB that much. As I said, Blaise Bula is a coldfish while JB has a egoistic attitude while Werra appears more thuggish in my view and Didier just does not care about many of the Wenge people especially Werrason with Alain Makaba wanting to stay in his corner. Only Adolphe gets along with everyone but it will tough for a Clan Wenge reunion as long as the other big names still resent each other in a deep manner.
Okay dude you really need to stop saying that clan wenge they don't care for each other what's with you constantly saying it on almost every post