Translation part 1


Mbuta Likasu started the interview by asking how Debleu Kinanga’s music career is going in Canada. Debleu responded that Canada is not like Europe, it's a country where people work a lot, and there are also not many Congolese musicians living there. He also mentioned that he backed almost all Congolese artists who went to Canada.
Mbuta Likasu then said that several people have been asking when they will hear Debleu’s voice again on a single, since he is considered one of the pillars of the late Défao and the Big Stars. They also wonder how it’s possible that he “disappeared,” because the reason he previously gave shouldn’t prevent someone from recording music. Debleu replied that he has recorded some tracks, but the problem is that they don’t have Congolese media platforms in Canada. Some songs are on YouTube, such as "Retrospection", and he also did featured on the album Ya ku Dominer of Alain Makaba, singing lead on “Code Moral” and doing vocals on “Wemina.”


After that, Mbuta Likasu said that when a bandleader dies, it becomes very difficult for the band members to continue his work. He explained that Azanga is trying, as well as Chiraq Lulendo (Défao’s brother), but so far there is no major activity from Big Stars. Mbuta suggested that Debleu Kinanga, Montana, Kabose, Jirbo Ntuta and himself could reunite to continue Défao’s legacy. Debleu did not reject the idea but said that a producer would need to take the initiative and that it would be difficult because Big Stars had internal camps and conflicts, Défao being the only one who was able to unite them.
Mbuta Likasu asked Debleu when  he joined Big Stars at its creation or afterwards. Debleu replied that he joined Big Stars in 1993, and that when he joined, they immediately started working on the album Donat Mikamba. Défao quickly gave him the opportunity to include a song Aimé Dollard. Mbuta then asked where Défao’s trust in him came from of giving him a song on the album right away. Debleu explained that he brought many fans to Big Stars’ public rehearsals and invited many artists who were his friends, such as Willy Bula, Blaise Bula, Jus d’Été Mulopwe, Bendoson, Titina Al Capone, etc. Défao immediately saw how important he was, especially since other band members were not doing this. Debleu also brought many women to the rehearsals, which was another reason Défao gave him many opportunities.

Mbuta Likasu then asked which position Debleu held within Big Stars. Debleu said that he became Chef d’Orchestre from the moment he joined until his departure. Mbuta was surprised to hear this. Debleu explained that when he joined, bass player Guy Wanzambi and Djodjo Bayinge were the chiefs, but when they went to Angola for concerts with promoter Alvaro Muanza, they had a conflict with Défao about money. Debleu was not present on the trip, and when they returned, Défao announced that he had “disbanded Big Stars,” claiming he was the only remaining member. Both Mbuta and Debleu laughed while revealed this.


Debleu continued, saying that Défao was angry because his musicians accused him of taking their money, even though they received travel cheques. Défao told Debleu the story, denied taking anything and said they would recruit new musicians. When the musicians later returned to Kinshasa, they wrote letters asking to rejoin the band, and therefore came back with Debleu being appointed Chef d’Orchestre. Mbuta then asked who the members of Big Stars were at that time, and Debleu cited Chouchouna Herady (dancer), Azanga, Djodjo Bayinge, Montana Kamenga, Kabose Bulembi, Guy Wanzambi and Djo Poster.



Mbuta was surprised to hear Djo Poster’s name, since he was co-founder and second leader of Big Stars and asked if he also went to Angola. Debleu explained that the Angola trip caused Défao and Djo Poster to split. When the deal came, Défao wanted them to go to Angola together and negotiate there, but Poster refused, saying he would negotiate directly with the promoter. The promoter told Défao that people in Angola were waiting for Défao, not for Djo Poster. Poster became angry, returned home and decided to leave Big Stars. Mbuta asked if there was no earlier conflict  and if it was only this incident that changed Poster’s mind. Debleu confirmed this, adding that Poster wanted to receive his money exclusively, but the promoter insisted he only needed Défao. When Défao went to Angola, he had success, marking the definite break between him and Djo Poster.
After that, Mbuta asked which album came after Donat Mikamba. Debleu said that they immediately went to Europe after the album release, so he didn’t witness the album’s success. Mbuta then asked how the European tour contract came about. Debleu explained that it came through Shinglo le Grand of Casa Tropical and nobody knew about it until the tour manager arrived in Kinshasa. Défao arranged everything discreetly.
Défao announced the travel date and read the list of those who would go to Europe. He ordered Debleu to remove from the bus those he hadn’t mentioned. Mbuta asked whether everyone had already boarded the bus. Debleu said that he removed bass player Jean Louis Bikunda, replacing him with percussionist Jeff Kavanda. Mbuta remarked that Debleu had a strong personality. Debleu replied that this is exactly what Défao liked about him. He even spoke to promoters on Défao’s behalf, also that Défao himself didn’t attend rehearsals and he would watch video recordings instead. Défao worked on songs at home and the band developed them afterwards.






Mbuta then told Debleu that people had said he was responsible for the conflict between JB Mpiana and Défao. Debleu said that there was no major conflict, only misunderstandings and that JB Mpiana was  still his “younger brother.” Mbuta insisted that many people were unaware of the conflict and that the two were not speaking until Défao died. Debleu said that Défao was not perfect, but they still called each other from time to time.
Debleu added that he didn't know all the details, but that Défao had once invited JB Mpiana for the Bana Congo album and JB did not show up, which made Défao angry. Défao complained that he helped Wenge Musica a lot before their breakthrough, but JB did not return the favor. Only Werrason, Marie Paul, and Manda accepted the invitation.





Mbuta then moved to the next subject, saying that albums like Famille Kikuta, Sala Noki, Copinage, and Tremblement de Terre were made in typical Big Stars style, but that Guerre de 100 Ans and Bana Congo were different, with more guest features and less Big Stars participation. Debleu explained that this was Défao’s decision. They rehearsed the songs as usual, but during the studio sessions other artists sang them. Défao told them that the album was his and not theirs and that when would record their own solo albums, they would not invite him either.
Debleu also said that although Défao had the image of being gentle, he was actually a tough person. The difference with other artists, however, was that he did not argue, he simply stopped meeting people once they disrespected him and later they could no longer reach him.
Then Debleu said that Défao was unhappy when JB Mpiana received the title "Maréchal", so he immediately changed his own nickname to "Sénéchal", because in his eyes the sénéchal was ranked above a maréchal (during medieval France, a sénéchal was title given to the most high-ranking official who acted as the king’s representative, being responsible  financial administration, and also tasked with legal matters, including overseeing royal justice).




part 2 coming in the evening.




Thinking about the nickname Senechal. I believe that it was to do with the incident during the  Bana Congo recordings, because JB already had the “Maréchal” nickname during the Kin-e-Bouge era and re-started boosting in during Feux de l’Amour. It’s not that he took the name in 1998-99. Also the first time that the nickname “Sénéchal” was heard on cd, was in Debleu Kinanga’s vocal during the song Chez Ntemba from Guerre de 100 Ans-album. I also remember Martin Sinnock interviewing Défao before the Nessy de London recordings, where Défao refused to be called “General” and insisted on “Sénéchal.



from 3:20 min “Motema na nga ezua mua nguya, Sénéchal eeeeeh”

Part 2

After 30 minutes of talking, Mbuta Likasu asked him if they could do a one-minute transition, saying it was just an introduction. He then started promoting several events: Mbilia Bel’s concert at La Madeleine, Fally Ipupa’s show at the Stade de France, Félix Wazekwa’s album De Mi Vida, and Quartier Latin’s 39th anniversary. After the transition, he returned to Debleu Kinanga and asked about his background and how he began making music.

Debleu explained that his real name is Blaise Kinanga and that his stage name “Debleu” originated from his former band IBG, who were rivals of Wenge Musica (both groups coming from Bandal). Wenge Musica had their own Blaise (Blaise Bula) and IBG had Blaise Kinanga. Blaise Bula was sometimes called “Celeboula,” and people in the neighbourhood also nicknamed him “Bleu Ciel.” Blaise Kinanga then adopted the name “Bleu de Bleus ,” eventually shortening it to “Debleu.”

Kinanga said he was born in Kinshasa and grew up in Bandal (Bandalungwa). He attended several schools because he was turbulent, mentioning Le Flamboyant, Ango-Ango, Sembo, École Technique de Bumbu, etc. He also didn’t finish school, simply because he didn’t like it.

Mbuta Likasu said that they had a lot of affinity with Blaise Bula and Kinanga agreed, saying that Blaise Bula was like an older brother to him in the neighbourhood. He lived one street behind them and Alain Makaba lived on the corner. He also mentioned Evo Nsiona and Deno Masolo. They grew up in the same area as the members of Wenge Musica, went to the same elementary school and often got driven to school in the same car as Blaise Bula or sometimes Alain Makaba.

When asked whether he ever considered joining Wenge Musica, Kinanga said that the opportunity was there, but he was too proud to join because he belonged to their rival group, IBG. At that time none of them knew that Wenge Musica would one day break through  in the music industry, they were all just small neighbourhood bands. Everything was in place for him to join Wenge Musica. He lived in the same neighbourhood as Blaise Bula, Alain Makaba, and Titina, and he saw how JB Mpiana and Werrason used to visit them. He already knew Christian Zitu, Zing Zong, Christian Mabanga, Patient Kusangila, Alain Mpela and Tutu Calugi years before.

When asked if IBG ever recorded anything, Debleu replied no, they only did concerts.

Mbuta Likasu then asked if Reddy Amisi was his idol, since Debleu's singing-style is like Reddy's vocal timbre. Debleu replied that it was the late Cele le Roi from Viva la Musica who made him sing that way when he joined the band La Musica New Look. Cele le Roi forced his musicians to perform exactly like Viva la Musica. He instructed Debleu to sing like Stino and Reddy Amisi, following styles from songs like “Petite Gina” and “Beaugosse ya Paris,” which shaped his tone. Before that, he used to mix the voices of Papa Wemba with King Kester Emeneya and Pépé Kallé




When asked who was part of IBG, Debleu mentioned Titina Al Capone, Jus d’Été Mulopwe, and the late Zozo Malaba (former lead guitarist of Victoria Eleison). After IBG, he joined La Musica New Look, where he met sapeurs/donors Pi-Roger Ibuna “ba collection” and Djamul Kanza, who used to get clothes from Defao.

In 1990, Pi-Roger asked him to accompany him to Defao to pick up clothes. Defao told them that he had left Choc Stars and was forming his own band. Pi-Roger suggested that Debleu should join Big Stars, but Debleu wasn’t a fan of Defao, he was a Viva la Musica fan.

Big Stars later became popular and Debleu often visited Defao in Ngiri-Ngiri, though they never spoke about him joining the band. After a Big Stars trip to Gabon, he was watching TV with Des Affaires (Kester’s court jester) and Des Trico, who pressured him to join Big Stars instead of wasting time at their house, so that they got shout-outs. Eventually, because the pressure was too much, he approached Defao and asked to join the band. Defao told him that he would join after their trips to Kisantu and Brazzaville.

When asked whether he immediately became chef d’orchestre, Debleu said he obtained that position after Big Stars’ trip to Angola, and put a song to the follwoing album and then travelled to Europe with Big Stars. He agreed with Mbuta Likasu that it didn’t take long for him to go to Europe, he spent only one year before travelling.

Mbuta Likasu asked why Defao released so many albums after Amour Scolaire, because people didn’t understand it at the time. Debleu said Defao had vision. Instead of releasing one album with 12 songs, he released multiple 6-track albums every three months, exactly what artists do today. People found it strange then, but nowadays artists release singles/EP's every few months, completing a full album within a year. In Debleu’s opinion, releasing many albums keeps a band in the public eye and helps audiences remember the songs. Releasing three songs every three months is easier for the public to remember than releasing 12 or 15 at once.



Mbuta Likasu then asked whether they had heard the criticism in Kinshasa that Big Stars was just a  band limited to the areas Bumbu, Ngiri-Ngiri and the Kongo Central province.  Debleu immediately responded that Big Stars performed everywhere other Kinshasa bands performed (Papa Wemba, Koffi Olomidé, Zaïko, Anti-Choc and Empire Bakuba) and even in the same countries.  The perception came because many Big Stars musicians were from Bumbu and Kongo-Central; only he (Debleu) and Blaise Bamba were from elsewhere (Bandal and Ma Campagne). Big Stars also performed frequently in Bumbu and Kongo Central because those were Defao’s strongholds.

He added that everything Defao did in the past is now common practice: they had huge success in Tshangu, just like Werrason had from 1998–2015. They performed deep inside Camp Luka, in Kimbanseke at places where cars cannot enter and in Masina. Musicians had to park their cars and walk kilometers carrying instruments.  He added that fans like Bana Gal/Les Galois of Bumbu/Selembao supported Big Stars long before joining Maison Mère and Nouvelle Écriture and also cited Bana Bakumela from Masina and that guys like late Henrica Mboma and late Alisi Baba contributed alot to Big Stars. The only difference being that Defao wasn’t liking fara-fara’s and avoiding them, but when coming about Tshangu, Bumbu, etc. those places being of Big Stars and him (Debleu) being surprised that his former colleagues (Kabose and Montana) aren’t able to convince the public of these areas, because that used to be Big Stars’ public.




Mbuta Likasu then asked why Montana Kamenga was left behind in Kinshasa when Debleu and the late Djodjo Bayingé travelled to Europe. For Adoli it was understandable, he was often left behind during his time in Choc Stars and Anti-Choc, but why not Montana, who was considered Defao’s confidant? He also asked if Kabose was already part of Big Stars.

When they were preparing for Europe, Defao told them he wanted to travel with good singers. But later, Defao told him that Montana’s maternal uncle came to his house asking for money, since Montana was the only family member who could provide and that he could not take Montana without informing his family or providing guarantees. According to Debleu, this was the explanation Defao gave for leaving Montana behind.

Debleu added details about the trip, how Guy Wanzambi almost missed out because he damaged Defao’s blazer during washing and the blazer that had different colours getting messed up, some parts that were white became red, etc. and because of that,  Defao saying mad,  that Wanzambi had to bring the blazer back the way it used to be otherwise he would get left behind and that he isn’t part anymore of Big Stars anymore. But Guy Wanzambi had his visa. They had an idea to replace him with Jean Louis Bikunda, by leaving the percussionist behind. But Defao changed his mind and decided still the bring the percussionist (Jeff Kavanda) and they went to Europe. But when coming to Europe they hadn’t a bass-player, which made Defao still decided to bring Guy Wanzambi. Mbuta Likasu then saying, that it was probably why he (Guy) ran away. Debleu then saying that if he and others ran away, it’s because Defao used to threaten in his own musicians in Europe, also saying stuff like, “when we will back in Kinshasa, you will see” and Mbuta Likasu reacting surprised with “is that true ?” Debleu then giving  how Defao said to dancer Chouchouna Herady, that she will see if she would still dance in Big Stars once they will be back in Kinshasa and that’s also why she ran away. Mbuta Likasu being surprised and Debleu saying that he doesn’t know Defao and that Defao was becoming mad and using curse words. Mbuta Likasu then saying that, the musicians would then get ready to run away and Debleu replying that Defao didn’t enslave his musicians and that they could go freely. When the musicians ran away in Europe, Defao wasn’t also looking for others and was just staying like that. Other bandleaders worry about musicians running away, but Defao didn’t had that.

After that Mbuta Likasu asked if they did alot of concerts in Europe. Kinanga then saying that they had two good concerts in Paris and Brussels, but after that Defao got in conflict with his musicians started performing with musicians that he was choosing. One day he would pick Djodjo and them performing, the other day Jagger, etc. and adding that he killed Big Stars in Europe. Mbuta Likasu reacting surprised and saying that they still recorded two albums. Debleu Kinanga replying with yes, saying that they were until the end with the Defao and those that run away being Guy Wanzambi and Kavanda and later Chouchouna and on the end drummer Richard (Richa Cogna-Cogna) running away as well. When coming to himself, Kinanga explains that he left, because of Defao picking other musicians for concerts and him at some point settling in Liège (Belgium), where he met atalaku Azanga, while Defao being in Paris with late Djodjo Bayingé. One day, he and Azanga went to snitch about Defao’s behaviour to Pepe Kalle, saying that he’s killing Big Stars and that they have problems with housing, etc. Pepe Kalle then saying that he would talk to Defao. Mbuta Likasu asking if Defao was listening to Pepe Kalle and Kinanga saying that Pepe Kalle was Defao’s idol and that he sings like him. Mbuta Likasu commenting that even if you are a thug, when Pepe Kalle comes you have to listen to him. Debleu agreeing, saying that on tv, Pepe Kalle is different. But in real life he was a thug and when talking with him in real life is totally different and Mbuta Likasu that he used to talk like a soldier in person. Mbuta Likasu then saying that it was good that Pepe Kalle left a soft image on tv, because otherwise people would have been scared of him. Debleu then saying that he heard that Pepe Kalle used to be a boxer in the past. Mbuta Likasu confirmed it that he was both a judoka and boxer.

When asked how they returned to Kinshasa, Debleu explained that after hearing Defao was in Liège performing with Anti-Choc, he went to the hotel to meet him. Defao was angry at first, but calmed down after Debleu explained his housing problems. Defao told him he would return to Kinshasa the next month with Djodjo, and that the others had run away, but it was fine. He suggested Debleu come to Brussels so his then-wife Honorine Engunduka could buy him a plane ticket. But when Debleu arrived, Defao had already left, and only Djodjo had a ticket. Honorine told him Defao had left no money for his ticket. Since he no longer had a passport, Defao’s brother Anto Bajaques helped him obtain a 'tenant-lieu', which allowed him to return.




After that Mbuta Likasu asked Debleu how much time they spent in Europe and Debleu replying that they stayed for like 1 year and some months in Europe. Mbuta Likasu then asking why he didn’t sung in the two albums (I guess that both Kinanga and Mbuta didn’t knew about the album APO which was the first version of Pitié mon Amour, which only got released in Europe and had the same songs but with the vocals of Djodjo, Kinanga and Adoli). Debleu Kinanga saying that Defao removed their vocals from the albums and that Jagger said to Defao that their music being shit and how they would return to Kinshasa while not getting paid, with that shit music, which made Defao mad and remove the guitar partitions of Jagger and the vocals of them, replacing them with vocals of Reddy Amisi, Dindo Yogo, Djuna Djanana, etc. (I believe that Kinanga is here talking about the stars play album). But despite that the majority returned to Kinshasa, Debleu citing rhytm-player Mogus, Djodjo and Azanga, being against people saying that everyone run away. Mbuta Likasu then said that when bands at that era would return to Europe, they would go back with cars, giving the example how Djuna Mumbafu of Empire Bakuba returned with a Range Rover and asking who of Big Stars returned to Kinshasa with a car. Debleu then saying that nobody returned with a car, only Djodjo Bayinge came with BMMW and that his (Debleu) car didn’t come to Kinshasa that Defao gave him in Liège didn’t come, since that Defao didn’t pay the shipment, while he promised to do that. Mbuta Likasu then saying that, he heard that Azanga came back with a mini-bus. Debleu replying that Azanga already left at that time, because of him being in conflict with Defao in Europe, saying that Defao wasn’t liking him anymore and used to ignore him in Europe. Mbuta then wondering why Defao wasn’t liking him, since that Azanga being the main-atalaku of Big Stars. Debleu explaining that according Defao, Azanga gossiped and insulted him. Mbuta Likasu reacting that it was Azanga’s brother who insulted Defao on the phone after not showing up for a playback-show and because of Azanga being present, Defao being mad against him. 






Mbuta Likasu then asked how things went when they returned to Kinshasa. Debleu explained that he did not go to Big Stars’ headquarters upon arrival, he went straight home. The following day, Djodjo Bayinge visited him and told him that Defao had said Big Stars was no longer his band and had become Montana’s band with Montana now being president. According to Djodjo, if he rejoined them, he would automatically become Montana’s musician, which he refused, saying he could never be Montana’s musician.

After that conversation, Debleu went to meet Defao. Defao told him that while they were in Europe, Montana recruited new musicians and that those musicians were Montana's musicians. But that he, Djodjo and Debleu weren't Montana's musicians,  that Debleu still remained chef d'orchestre and that Djodjo had simply misunderstood him. After this, Debleu went back to explain it to Djodjo, saying they were not Montana’s musicians, but Djodjo refused to accept it.

Debleu added that Montana had recruited dancers and a full band who were even performing during Defao’s absence. Because of this, Defao made Montana president of Big Stars. One day, Defao held a meeting and announced that he had confiscated Montana’s band. Mbuta Likasu laughed and asked whether, after their return to Kinshasa, Defao immediately started working on Famille Kikuta Pt. 2 (Amour Interdit). Debleu said that they first began shooting music videos (of the Stars Play album), after that they recorded a group album to compensate the musicians who had stayed behind and those who were recruited in Kinshasa. Mbuta Likasu added that they first went to Zambia for a series of concerts.



Mbuta Likasu then asked if discipline returned within the band after their European tour. Debleu said that it was impossible not to be disciplined in Big Stars, even though Defao rarely said anything, anyone who misbehaved would be fired by him the next day. However, he added that Defao played a double game, telling different things to Montana, Kabose and himself, almost like mind games. For example, Defao never told him that Montana was his president.
Debleu the nsaid that he was still the one signing contracts on behalf of Defao, traveling to Kongo Central, Brazzaville and Zambia and that nothing had changed.

Mbuta Likasu was surprised and said that signing contracts is the role of a president or bandleader. Debleu replied  that he himself secured the Canada contract in Kenya and was the one who was keeping the musicians’ passports.

Next, Mbuta Likasu asked about the concert where Sankara de Nkuta caused trouble. Debleu said that Sankara was his little brother from Bandal. He and the late sapeur Beyi Canto had organized a concours de la sape event in Bandal to promote Big Stars, confronting the sapeur group Guerre de 100 Ans against  sapeur-group Tokyo-Osaka of late Souzy Versace, Chouna and others.



When asked about the famous concert in Abidjan, Debleu explained that he was not present because he was still in the hospital. He had been severely injured in a car accident after finishing the recording of the “Sala Noki” video at the Unibra (Skol) factory. He said they had drunk a lot of beer that day, even Defao, which surprised Mbuta Likasu. Debleu said Defao drank occasionally; whiskey, rum or beer, but never in public. Even eating in front of people was something he avoided.

Debleu said that he and Blaise la Bamba had arrived in a BMW. After finishing the video shooting, Defao told them to give their car to Papy Simbi. Although being surprised, they accepted the order and entered the bus. After only 100 meters, the bus got into a serious accident. Everyone survived and could walk, except Debleu. The day that they made the car-accident, the original bus-driver Ebolo was suspended and Defao took a guy from Ngiri-Ngiri to replace him

Part 4

-Mbuta Likasu asked  Debleu’s if he participated to the  Tremblement de Terre recordings and who animated alongside Theo Mbala on the song “Régis.” Debleu said  he wasn't there and that the person animting it was being Theo Mbala. Mbuta mentioned Pecos and Debleu explained that Pecos joined Big Stars during that period but briefly left to tour with Mbuta Muntu Radja Kula. They later met him in Kenya, where he rejoined Big Stars. People in the comments saying that the person that animating that part being singer Joslain Nsiala who passed away in 2024.

Mbuta Likasu asked whether Pecos simply followed them to America. Debleu saying that Pecos made multiple trips with Defao to Europe (for the final recordings and mixing of Guerre de 100 Ans and Bana Congo), while the rest of the band remained in Kinshasa.

Mbuta Likasu then  asked Debleu why Defao named the album Guerre de 100 Ans and he  said it was because they were collaborating with the sapeur group of the same name, known in Bandal. Mbuta concluded that Bana Congo was made in the spirit of the campaign "Tokufa Pona Congo." Debleu agreed, adding that Defao initially wanted to name it Les Léopards, but later changed it to Bana Congo.





After that point, Mbuta Likasu said that after the Bana Congo vol. 1 & 2, released Nessy de London, but them still not actively participated like the previous albums. Debleu said that since Defao is no longer alive, he cannot go too deeply into his personality, but he described several conflicts.in Kinshasa, Defao had promised that because Debleu had not sung on the albums, he would tour with him in Kenya unpaid and would receive good money once they reached the US. Debleu accepted, toured in Kenya for free, but upon arriving in the US, received nothing. When he asked Defao for the promised money to buy a jeep he had seen, Defao told him to show the signed papers proving the agreement, which frustrated him seriously

Mbuta Likasu asked why he did not make a written contract. Debleu said it was impossible to let Defao to do things like that.

Defao spent large amounts of money on expensive clothing and Jitrois jackets. According to Debleu, Defao saw big money long before the younger generation (Fally, Ferré). He recalled seeing him earn $20,000, $30,000 and even $100,000 in Kenya, adding that Defao bought 10 jitrois jackets of 15.000 dollars, when Papa Wemba was still alive. He claimed that Defao could have bought a villa in Ma Campagne or a house in Bandal but simply was not interested in houses or cars. Mbuta believed Defao owned only one red BMW Golf. Debleu corrected him, saying Defao had a band bus, a red BMW, a black BMW and a white BMW. Mbuta asked whether the black BMW was not actually Blaise la Bamba’s. Debleu said it was meant for Blaise, but Defao took it.

Debleu Kinanga also revealed that the musicians of Big Stars got stuck at the border of Tanzania-Kenya, because they didn’t had passeports since that the passeports were with Debleu Kinanga, who was in Kenya at that moment. Debleu sended the Defao’s passeport, which made him get to Kenya through the plane, while the musicians got stuck at the border with Kenya for 5 days. So when finally arriving in Kenya, the musicians refused to perform for Defao, because of getting abandoned and stuck for 5 days and asked to Debleu to inform Defao about it. Debleu then requested them to take a picture. But the picture wasn’t visible. However, before that Debleu could talk to Defao about it, Defao already knew it, since that someone snitched on them and  Defao calling Debleu, asking him what musicians said to him. Debleu Kinanga explaining that the musicians didn’t want to perform anymore and  wanted togo back to Kinshasa. Defao then saying that if they don’t want to perform, they have to pay their hotelrooms for their own. Debleu Kinanga saying that the musicians want to return to Kinshasa and sleep outside anyways. Defao asking who said that and Debleu himself snitching dancer Jacquie Olandjo and Montana Kamenga. Defao then saying that they would do a meeting and that all musicians have to come. All musicians came to the meeting, but Montana didn’t show up. Defao went seriously hard on Jacquie during the meeting. After that Defao said that he disbanded Big Stars and that they would all go back to Kinshasa, adding that they wouldn’t go to USA anymore and get the reserve team in Kinshasa in their place. The musicians weren’t aware that they were about to go the United States and changed their mind, when hearing Defao saying USA and requested that they would do concerts with him without getting paid. Defao after that went to Europe again and left them behind in Kenya.


Mbuta Likasu asked Debleu Kinanga what made him stay in Canada. Debleu then explaining that it was due to Defao not keeping his promises about the money, saying that he didn’t sign anything with him (refering what he said previously about the jeep he wanted to pay). Debleu then made a meeting with all musicians and said that there’s no future in Big Stars, Defao paying expensive clothes, but him having nothing when going back to Kinshasa while his friends Titina Al Capone and Alain Mpela visiting him with their Mercedes Benz 600 and explaining what Defao promised him in Kenya. After that he gave all passeports to tourpromoter Rocco Massala and took his luggages said to his friend Blaise la Bamba to go, Blaise la Bambathen returned Defao’s stuff which was with him and keyboard and they left Toronto for Montreal.

Debleu stayed intentionally, hoping to pressure Defao. When Big Stars reached the US, he first called Defao’s brother, Anto Ba Jacques, who said Debleu could not remain in Canada because he was the image of the band. Anto told him to call Defao. When Debleu called, Defao responded by asking why he was calling after running away, then hung up, making Debleu furious.  After his departure. The musicians that were still in the band, also got in conflict with Defao.

Debleu Kinanga realized that he forgot a point. He then went back to the point when they came, saying that Rocco Massala made them get visa’s for Nothern America and arranged a contract for 3 concerts in Canada (Toronto, Montreal and Quebec) that Defao signed in Canadian dollars. Before arriving in Canada, they landed in the US and met Thierry Kanta, a relative of Defao, who helped them obtain 1-year multiple-entry visas for the US, like the way Rocco Massala got them a visa of 1 year with multiple entries for Canada. While in the US, they told Defao that Canadian dollars were worth less than American dollars. Defao wanted to renegotiate with Rocco to change the payments into American dollars. Rocco agreed and Defao planned to send the musicians to Canada first and follow after receiving his payment. The musicians arrived, but Defao refused to travel.

Rocco called the police and reported the situation. He then took the tour bus,  which contained the band’s clothes and Defao’s items and escaped. When Defao realized it, he flew from the US to Montreal. He search everywher for Rocco, but couldn't find him, when he found Rocco at his home and  heattacked him. The police ended up by arrested Rocco for assaulting him physically.

During interrogation, police explained Defao he was at fault for not reading the contract and forced him to perform the three concerts. Upcoming to the event,s Defao said to people not to come, because he wouldn’t sing well. The police forced Defao to do the 3 concerts. In the concerts, Defao was throwing shots at Rocco and kept insulted him.

Afterward, Defao planned to go to Uganda. However, he had still some contracts on paper, which ruined the agreement with Thierry Kanta. The visa for the United States had multiple entries, but Thierry did not understand why people kept coming with their visa’s not realizing that it were ngulu’s. Thierry Kanta then deciding to cancel the visa and when Defao finally wanted to come back, he got arrested in Kenya and him getting stuck there. Mbuta Likasu then understanding why Defao got stuck in Kenya. Debleu Kinanga explaining that Defao left his musicians behind in Europe and America, while he went back to Africa. The American Embassy informing Thierry Kanta that musicians were coming, but Thierry Kanta not understanding it and getting confused, not knowing that Defao was bringing multiple ngulu’s to the US. Thierry Kanta  not understanding it, because Defao still had to do concerts for him and at the same time,  all musicians tayed in Europe and America, while Defao had gone to Uganda on his own since that all musicians refused to go to Uganda, because of the war Congo DR had at that time with Uganda. However, he kept bringing people to the United States with the passports of those same bandmembers that decided to stay. So when Defao finally decided to get back to the US he got  arrested with Jules Nsana and Kinuni at the airport.


Mbuta asked whether Nessy de London was already released by then. Debleu confirmed. He explained that Defao wanted to make extra money by sending ngulu to the US using the musicians' passports. But because he had not informed the tour promoter, everything collapsed.

There were also problems with the production of Guerre de 100 Ans. Defao gave Rocco Massala exclusive rights to the album but also sold it to Simon Ndjongang of SIPE Production, Rigo Makengo and José Kapesa. All the producers complained. Defao claimed he did nothing wrong because Rocco had the rights for North America, Rigo for Europe and SIPE for Africa. SIPE Production, that produced Guerre de 100 Ans and Tremblement de Terre, cancelled their contract with Defao and Rigo decided to cancel the upcoming Schengen Europe tour.

Debleu added that no one in Big Stars was a saint, including himself, he admitted that he informed Anto Ba Jacques and Defao about the musicians’ plans to eventually leave Big Stars. He also explained how some musicians refused to go to Uganda due to the conflict between DRC and Uganda at the time. Defao said those who refused to go with him to Uganda should leave. He also said that all 18 musicians that were in Kenya had US visas, but Defao still left some behind. He refused to bring the dancers, except Brigitte. Because he was angry about the way Jacquie complained about being unpaid and also how another dancer had slept with a concert-promoter.

Debleu said that Defao never confronted people directly when angry. He wrote everything down and waited for the moment to take revenge.