thinking about it what happened after karmapa's first album and monde arabe/anti terro temoignage ,progressively killed our music
and what makes it worst is that  we dont have many congolese fans of congolese music anymore  but rather fans of foreign music and fans of artists just bothered with their artist being THE ONE who can get a breath outside DRC in african countries
hopefully i wont offend anybody and i understand efandjo had to promote his album but it was painful to see tokoss 1 becoming the center of his concerts even in non francophone countries(sorry to pick him since he is the one who toured the most and the one who jumped first in the trend of doing like others to compete with them)
congolese public and artists have a massive responsability on the downfall of congolese music
you cant play true odemba today musique ya ba vieux,you cant do fiesta musique ya ba vieux mikoloyo il faut mua rnb mua nini ekota,you cant but you have no choice than to do a lot of programmed rumbas which a lot of people automatically include into tchatcho ohh alandi koffi mais afingaka ye ba rumba ango pe ekokana kokana kaka,so whats left?doing generique and praying for a miracle, doing afrobeat and so on in order to compete with burna boy and co while in our prime we were admired for our own music
our musicians should unite to save congolese music like it is naturally not unite to fight against each other let alone  queuing up behind one artist sxxxxing him up hoping that he'll give passes to go conquer africa together while doing foreign music

I blame Tabu Ley for the downfall of our music. Granted it wasn't entirely his fault that every album today would be infested with 25+ similar-sounding rumbas paid for by donors, but he was the one who kickstarted this whole mess by slamming sebene and calling it noise, the same way old people call rap music noise. Koffi taking his words to heart, rearranging Monde Arabe in the wake of Karmapa's success and everyone following the leader would just speed things up.

Tabu Ley never said that sebene was noise. Btw he was claiming that he created it for Olympia and Zaïko copied that style. Tabu Ley was a big fan of Wenge and that they were doing a good job. He used to call them often to congratulate them after almost every album-release.  He just said that Koffi had to stop copying Wenge and go back to his old Tcha-Tcho and stealing other people’s dance. About Wenge, he just said back in the 90s that they had stop to release songs who weren’t making sense, praising people to much. Because  those vocals they were adding in songs had a different topic. Tabu Ley also added they have to try to sing about the problems that were occurring in Zaïre or diaspora, like the way he & Franco were doing back in the days. Franco in Mamou singing about women living in Brussels  starting to do prostitution, Tabu Ley singing about the recensement, etc.
That’s why JB M’piana responded with his album Feux de l’Amour, having songs like Conseil Patcho, Bana Lunda & Feux de l’Amour. Tabu Ley was very happy with that, but he would quickly become angry at that him, for the way JB was to talking to him, when he tried to reconciliate JB, Blaise Bula & Makaba with Werrason, Masela & Adolphe Dominguez. Supporting Werrason immediately after the split and giving Werra the network of noble men from their province who were part of the elite (politicians and donors like Theophile Mbemba, etc.)

Most music-fans had in their head that Koffi was going towards to the end of his career, which made him copying Wenge. For me Koffi isn't responsible for the downfall of our music, btw most youngsters in Kinshasa hadn't him as rolmodel. Koffi's albums were a huge succes, him being the one first to perform at Bercy. But people were still not respecting him, because of the way he changed his music-style and went to on the sebene-mode.



Emeneya here attacking Koffi for doing nothing and just stealing dances to go quickly to Europe and claim that it are his dances (like the way he did with Kiwanzenza at Bercy). from 20:50 min

The rolmodels of youngsters were JB & Werrason. It were Werrason & JB Mpiana who were the kings of ndombolos in Kinshasa. But they stopped with it and focused on rumba, because of the succes of Droit Chemin & Sens Interdit who had alot of rumba-songs, recruiting musicians like Deplick, etc. JB Mpiana already wanting to prove himself more as a singer from Anti-Terro, talking about "ba oeuvres" to attack Werrason for the way he singing not alot and only focussing on atalaku's.


In the same period coupe-decale started to take over in nightsclubs having songs like Kotazo & Yako tia, later also Zembe who put the futur of Ndombolo in Kinshasa in danger. Bandleaders also seeing that DJ's in Paris (most clubs being owned by people coming from West-Africa), seeing that they were boycotted by them or just played for 20%.Werrason then starting to release coupe-decale generiques to fight it. Roga Roga on the side of Brazzaville, coming with the style of generiques where the rhythm-guitar dominating alot, to fight. Koffi trying to copy Werra's style in Chicotte ya Papa, but it didn't work. So if it there are people to be mad at that it, then it are Werrason, JB Mpiana and also Fally & Ferre Gola, who became the new hero's of the youngsters. 




Another problem is about atalaku's. In 1980's and 1990's most cries were like Paysan Congolais saying coming from folkloric bands, streets bands or the pire petits of atalaku's stealing cries Kikongo-cries from Bumbu and Selembao were you had a huge amount of Bakongo living there who were doing those cries when they were mourning people. Alot atalaku's came from folkloric bands or were coached by them (last generation being Celeo, Gentamicine, Bill Clinton, etc.). But when bands started to have succes with those tours of Zenith, Olympia, Bercy, and ngulu's started to get in Europe, many youngster wanted also to get an Europe and joined those bands without having that knowledge of folklore and those secrets of animation, just jumping in. Then from 2003/04 through streets-bands, betise-animation started to come slowly in bands. Betise already existed in Congolese animation, but this time it wasn't animated hidden or in Kikongo so that people won't understand it. Cries like Esala Pasi, Ba Maman bapesa Sima, Kotisa-bimisa, Magalie alati string,etc. From then atalaku's started slowly to abandon folklore-animation for betise and most atalaku's being recruited from 2003, not coming from folkloric-bands or being coached by atalaku's coming from there. The same for guitar-players, from 1950 until the mid-90s, beside of Cuban and later American music, most Congolese music was inspired from tribal music with the Mongo-tribe, Luba-tribe, Kongo-tribe and those coming from Bandundu having the biggest influence and it became bigger during Mobutu-regime. The last generation of Burkina Faso, Japonais, Flamme Kapaya also included alot of sebenes coming from their region. But today, many guitarist don't have that as base and just blindly copy Kapaya's style and try to play so fast as they can. Also back in the days every guitarist had his own style of playing sebene, but today everybody play the same way, you have just to watch instagram and youtube.

This was the infamous Tabu Ley interview that changed everything. I believe Koffi is one of the people responsible, because he made Monde Arabe a more Rhumba album (which wasn't bad) but he made it worse by encouraging Fally and Ferre to do more rhumba songs since the ladies were loving it at concerts, and it became much much worse when BEK came out. Look at Ferre for example you would never think he's a product of Wenge. Jb was already doing Rhumba songs in Anti Terro, he didn't have any sebene songs credited to him.
This is the absolute worst era of our music and I don't see anyway coming back from this. If Blaise Bula had the clout and fanbase of Fally, Ferre, Koffi, Werra, JB, then things might've changed because Rendekita was 50/50 Sebene and Rhumba album, and maybe others might've followed suit.

Don't forget that all JB's 6 songs in Internet (except Feux d'Artifice) were also rumba's. It was also due to him taking the best songs from the Chemin de Fer-reserves, to support the group-albums, thinking that it would flop if he wouldn't put those songs.




I don't understand why y'all never point the finger at JB & Werrason who were the kings in Kinshasa, having the most influence on
 youngsters at that time and who were throwing shots at Koffi for copying them because of him being artistically finished in their opinion, but them on the end ending up by becoming rumba-artists. Koffi didnt had any influence on youngsters at all. Don't you remember how journalists and even small musicians like Rombaut Tunani were attacking Koffi, saying that it was time for to stop with music because of being to old, being a faux chanteur of demi-ton (eeeeh) and that he had to make place for Generation Wenge and other youngsters? It is just that Koffi entered an another dimension after BEK and Wemba & Emeneya already being finished, but 15/20 years ago people weren't seeing Koffi that big. They were just seeing as a troublemaker, who was profiting from Wenge's music to fill Zenith, Olympia & Bercy, having to diss everyone.



I think you misunderstood Fally's interview with Papy Mboma of 2017 or 2016. He said that Eternellement of Force de Frappe was about to a sebene-song and Koffi advisizing him to make from it a rumba, so that girls would like it and that his song could become easily a hit. Koffi had nothing to do with Fally and Ferre's solo albums, because he was against it. Koffi didn't know how Fally artistic prepared Droit Chemin and was did everything to sabotate the album. Thinking about Droit Chemin, if Fally followed the Wenge formula, I think that the album would have flopped. Because back at that time the public was tired of sebene and wanted something new, which was why Karmapa's new album easily became a succes, noticing that bandleaders were doing nothing and just profiting from the work of atalaku's and their singers, wanting to see bandleaders sing more. The same Fally who came with Droit Chemin, came with something different which singing about sex on Orgasy. Ferre Gola who already started preparing Sens Interdit, before joining Quartier Latin and who had a reserve of songs from his time of Les Marquis and Maison Mere, just followed Fally's style and modified songs who were orginally sebene-songs. So for me you have Fally, Werrason & JB who are responsible for killing Ndombolo. Koffi aza innocent.

Don't forget that all JB's 6 songs in Internet (except Feux d'Artifice) were also rumba's. It was also due to him taking the best songs from the Chemin de Fer-reserves, to support the group-albums, thinking that it would flop if he wouldn't put those songs.




I don't understand why y'all never point the finger at JB & Werrason who were the kings in Kinshasa, having the most influence on
 youngsters at that time and who were throwing shots at Koffi for copying them because of him being artistically finished in their opinion, but them on the end ending up by becoming rumba-artists. Koffi didnt had any influence on youngsters at all. Don't you remember how journalists and even small musicians like Rombaut Tunani were attacking Koffi, saying that it was time for to stop with music because of being to old, being a faux chanteur of demi-ton (eeeeh) and that he had to make place for Generation Wenge and other youngsters? It is just that Koffi entered an another dimension after BEK and Wemba & Emeneya already being finished, but 15/20 years ago people weren't seeing Koffi that big. They were just seeing as a troublemaker, who was profiting from Wenge's music to fill Zenith, Olympia & Bercy, having to diss everyone.



I think you misunderstood Fally's interview with Papy Mboma of 2017 or 2016. He said that Eternellement of Force de Frappe was about to a sebene-song and Koffi advisizing him to make from it a rumba, so that girls would like it and that his song could become easily a hit. Koffi had nothing to do with Fally and Ferre's solo albums, because he was against it. Koffi didn't know how Fally artistic prepared Droit Chemin and was did everything to sabotate the album. Thinking about Droit Chemin, if Fally followed the Wenge formula, I think that the album would have flopped. Because back at that time the public was tired of sebene and wanted something new, which was why Karmapa's new album easily became a succes, noticing that bandleaders were doing nothing and just profiting from the work of atalaku's and their singers, wanting to see bandleaders sing more. The same Fally who came with Droit Chemin, came with something different which singing about sex on Orgasy. Ferre Gola who already started preparing Sens Interdit, before joining Quartier Latin and who had a reserve of songs from his time of Les Marquis and Maison Mere, just followed Fally's style and modified songs who were orginally sebene-songs. So for me you have Fally, Werrason & JB who are responsible for killing Ndombolo. Koffi aza innocent.

Come to think of it Jb hasn't had a sebene song credited to his name since 2002 Mela Primus, if i'm not mistaken. No yaya I'm not talking Eternellement, I'm talking about the Monde Arabe songs like Silvi and Eputsha, I meant that he indirectly inspired them to follow the Rhumba trend, since girls were going crazy during concerts when he would perform those songs and he would turn to them and say "See what it's like.
Papa Koffi aza innocent te, remember when he said after BEK that it's all about rhumba and those dance/sebene songs are for the west or something like that. I'm not saying it's all completely his fault but he has his fair share to blame. Ferre hasn't done a sebene in any of his albums since 2009, he even told his musicians when given some opportunity to add songs to not put Sebene, whilst credit to Fally in LP there were 4 sebene songs.
I agree with Archos Fally made it worse with those stupid Tokooos songs during his concerts and proper shoving those songs down everyone's throats.
I do agree that Werra and Jb killed it too, who would;ve thought back in the late 90s that during 2009 and onwards their albums would be 90% rhumba.

I agree with the examples given for the reasons especially the lack of linkage anymore between main groups and the street/traditional groups is creating no innovation, and the older generation creating this poor balance. But also I wanted to ask do you lot think that the lack of innovative soloists themselves is an issue?

The thing that annoys me is that the genre continues to decline and they arent doing anything about it. They know the golden era was the late 90s early 2000s but they continue to keep doing the same thing these past 10 years. I dont think there is anyone that was as strong as Tabu Ley that can criticize the music today. There is way more rhumba these days than there ever was seben even when it was at its peak!

The people powerful enough to criticise it are the same people causing the issue

I've already said it since years that Congolese music is dead in Kinshasa. Most youngster prefer foreign music, which is also due to most of them only watching foreign television and not the local tv, most nightclubs only putting foreign music. That's also the case inareas like Makala, Bumbu, Ngaba, Kisenso and Selembao. Those who like local-music, mostly mix it with coupe-decale, afro or rap. When Nouvelle Ecriture atalaku Biscuit des Ecoliers said that their album will have a afro-generique, I said immediatly Ndombolo ekufi. Roga Roga of Brazzaville made with Extra Musica a ndombolo-album 242, but it flopped and didn't give him contracts around Africa. Only Abidjan, which is normal because of all politicans and concert-promoters being big Extra-fans. It shows that even if they would release Ndombolo-albums today, it won't change anything. The African-music media isn't also the same like 20 years ago. They prefer to promote alot of Nigerian music than music coming from Francophone countries. Also coming with rules that music must not be longer than 5:35 min, etc.

Yep. The cultural atmosphere is not also the same. People are more westernized than 20 years.

Back then listening to rap, outside of elite small circles in rich neighborhoods, was seen as a weirdo thing.

It will take either a strong public involvement (like Mobutu's recours à l'authenticité) or a musical titan t change thing around (like Vybz Kartel did in Jamaica). But I still have hope.

Why won't our artists just stay in their lane and accept the fact that they won't be ever on the level like Gims, Dadju, Burna Boy, Davido?

Another problem is about atalaku's. In 1980's and 1990's most cries were like Paysan Congolais saying coming from folkloric bands, streets bands or the pire petits of atalaku's stealing cries Kikongo-cries from Bumbu and Selembao were you had a huge amount of Bakongo living there who were doing those cries when they were mourning people. Alot atalaku's came from folkloric bands or were coached by them (last generation being Celeo, Gentamicine, Bill Clinton, etc.). But when bands started to have succes with those tours of Zenith, Olympia, Bercy, and ngulu's started to get in Europe, many youngster wanted also to get an Europe and joined those bands without having that knowledge of folklore and those secrets of animation, just jumping in. Then from 2003/04 through streets-bands, betise-animation started to come slowly in bands. Betise already existed in Congolese animation, but this time it wasn't animated hidden or in Kikongo so that people won't understand it. Cries like Esala Pasi, Ba Maman bapesa Sima, Kotisa-bimisa, Magalie alati string,etc. From then atalaku's started slowly to abandon folklore-animation for betise and most atalaku's being recruited from 2003, not coming from folkloric-bands or being coached by atalaku's coming from there. The same for guitar-players, from 1950 until the mid-90s, beside of Cuban and later American music, most Congolese music was inspired from tribal music with the Mongo-tribe, Luba-tribe, Kongo-tribe and those coming from Bandundu having the biggest influence and it became bigger during Mobutu-regime. The last generation of Burkina Faso, Japonais, Flamme Kapaya also included alot of sebenes coming from their region. But today, many guitarist don't have that as base and just blindly copy Kapaya's style and try to play so fast as they can. Also back in the days every guitarist had his own style of playing sebene, but today everybody play the same way, you have just to watch instagram and youtube.

You nailed it here.

I understand the "seben songs do not exist anymore". But blaming the donwfall of the genre on Seigneur Ley and Karmapa? C'mon.

I see many people here talk about seben. It's true that upbeat songs with seben disappeared. However, we have generic every weeks. They are  BAD.

Songs with seben can come back, you won't like it, the same way you don't like those generiques.

As Mfumu explained it, the real root of the genre was always folk. That is the true inspiration in our music. The problem is that these new generation musicians are not connected to that. That's why you have those bland, mechanical generic that people forget after two listening.

And JB and Werra have also to be blamed for this situation. At one point, they controlled the genre but they had no vision and chose facility. They could've made it a rule to only recruit atalaku and instrumentists with a proper knowledge of folk. This what happen with the genre is controlled by people with a limited artistic vision. Makaba should've acted like Franco and took over Wenge in the 90's and ruled the 00's...

You have no congolese music without folklore.

However, I don't get rumba hate - seben idealization we he on this board.

The genre always had an equilibrium between rumba and seben. That was one of his strenght.

The seben obsession of the early 2000 was already a problem. It lead to the opposite phenomenon a few years later. Some of you seem to imply that doinf rumba is bad. I mean cmon.

But to me, the main culprit of the downfall of the genre is the lack of originalty due to the disconnection with folk.

Congolese musicians need to understand that they cannot win playing other people music.

Another issue is also the lack of new blood. Can you imagine that there is no young band in Congo. It's basically the same group of people running around in circle. That point deserves its own thread.

Why won't our artists just stay in their lane and accept the fact that they won't be ever on the level like Gims, Dadju, Burna Boy, Davido?

What level are you talking about? if you are referring to Fally then Musically he is superior to all of those guys you just mentioned

the only advantage guys you mentioned might have on fally and Congolese musicians in general is wealth.

and if it wasn't for fally ipupa doing the type of music he's doing right now which has advanced his craft and led to his first bercy and single d'or then Congolese music or let me just say Fally in general would have fade out long ago after the release of Original, fally hasn't had a hot and good seben like Original since then. but it because of the urban music that has made him tour America, Europe, Africa the most in the past 4yrs and has led to him winning Afrimma African Artist of the yer in 2017/18